To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

Think £4500 is much less than the Uk average expenses.

We don’t agree on most issues, but I do appreciate you taking the time to actually write down and post where you stand.

I respect that you took the time to actually answer the questions I asked of you. You were respectful in this reply and again, whilst we won’t and don’t always agree, your post was informative and articulate without being childish and pathetic.

Thank you for showing some people can hold different but they don’t need to be disrespectful.

Again, of all the posts on this threat THIS will be the one that holds the most clout with me.

What would the practical support be, organising taxis to scans? Babysitters for existing children whilst you attend the birth?

Clinics and science - less than a grand!
351 on getting started?

I suppose saying it's an investment is more of a language thing, as in, this is your membership and it's an investment in your future/future child.

For 4,500 I'd want to know more, but it's a nice infographic.

I don’t think it’s something people go in to without serious consideration

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/AMA/3806707-Im-becoming-a-surrogate-AMA

Just had first transfer in hopes of becoming a surrogate for a friend. Ask away.

Q. What happens to the baby if both dads, for example, die in a car accident before delivery?

A. Oooo interesting. I’ll ask them

So yes actually, people do go surrogacy into without serious consideration.

Aren't they marketing you? To potential surrogates?

As a quick reference, a recently launched surrogacy agency in the U.K. has the following breakdown.

Here is the post. It presents this as a list of where the money goes but also appears to be the breakdown of fees.

So for example, if it's about where your membership fee is spent, why would a commissioning parent/s need marketing and admin as part of their fee? They are already there and want a baby not to be 'marketed' too...

If this is where the money is invested, as a company, for the purposes of building for a "non profit" why would it include be pregnancy?

It's possibly just badly worded (and badly spelled). If the 'emotional support' fee could be broken down into what it actually covers I would guess that this would include the implications counselling session/s but from their post it's clear it's about the members, meaning the commissioning parents, and not the surrogate mothers. So maybe that is paid for elsewhere or if provided for free.

You get what you pay for.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CXGWQ0Ks7lC/?utmmedium=copyy_link

@ldontWanna

I think your list was a good starting point and it demonstrates that it's complex and needs a lot of deep thought, examples, research and analysis to build a framework that truly works for all parties, remains balanced and doesn't create a hierarchy between parties and safeguards against potential harm.

On the counselling issue, I and have never received implications counselling as a surrogate mother, but my understanding from those who have (from a large Surrogacy Agency in the U.K.) have told me that it focuses on the likelihood that the mother will relinquish her parental rights. It's not counselling or therapy in the sense where it would explore her reasons and get to the root of any trauma, it's very much a tick-box exercise. The counsellors claim to be 'independent' but are arranged through the agency and paid for by the commissioning parents as part of their membership so I think it's reasonable to be sceptical. (It's a bit like the research the American Tabacco companies paid for, that 'proved' that smoking doesn't cause cancer, or the Drs paid for by PGC&E helped the Hinckley water poisoning victims.)

In "Unexpected Mother" by Susan A Ring, an American woman who was a surrogate mother to several babies (including triplets that were 'reduced' to twins because 3 was too many) spoke of how she was a "people pleaser" and how she had a difficult upbringing and decided to become a surrogate mother whilst going through a divorce. I think it's possible that many women, if not most, who become surrogate mothers, would benefit from deeply exploratory therapy that could perhaps pinpoint their true motivation.

I'm hoping that the high-earning/tax paying surrogate mother upthread returns to explain a bit more, as she said she remains involved in the 'surrogacy world' and I think she could help to explain more about the implications therapy, perhaps explain how I was wrong (as this is anecdotal) but I don't want to tag her and draw her back into this messy thread!

Which bit of my post says I am assuming things won't change? I specifically said I am arguing that they shouldn't.

Are you high?

Just because something is illegal now

Jesus wept. Surrogacy isn't illegal in the U.K. it is legal. Commercial surrogacy is illegal. Altruistic surrogacy is legal. Proposals take us closer to commercial surrogacy. I see you're quick to comment and as a result perhaps you are not absorbing much. What did you think the public consultation, mentioned back on...oh I don't know, page 4 or 5, was about?

I recon over the next few years a few things will change and with the whole equality movement etc…. Watch this space!!

So you don't understand what law reform means and didn't clock that this is already happening in the U.K. despite it being mentioned several times?

This "whole equality movement" of which you speak, what does that mean? Equality for women? Equality for men?

**So glad I'm not holding my breath for you to come up with any actual practical way to implement any of the shit you are spouting, 'mate'.

There is legislation in the UK which on the whole I agree with. It's imperfect but it's practical. I'm not arguing with the legislation, I'm arguing for it not to change! It's amazing that you're ten pages in without having understood that**

@RepentMotherfucker

Just because something is illegal now, doesn’t mean it will always be that way! How naive to assume things won’t change……

I recon over the next few years a few things will change and with the whole equality movement etc…. Watch this space!!

Oh to add to my now redundant list of safeguards (what's even the point???)

All children conceived by surrogacy must be told the truth about their conception from an early age.

So do you have any thoughts on this?

@RepentMotherfucker haha it's ok. I guess it just shows how difficult and complex this is ,even when you have the best intentions. Ofc , that's only if you want to protect the interests of the most vulnerable in this transaction.

**We could start listing all the possible health risks if you want. Over nine months plus pre pregnancy treatment, it is so much more risky than a routine operation.

I am surprised that you, who have had two children, cannot acknowledge that.

Well, I just had one and it resulted in a pretty traumatic c section. That was totally unforeseen. So, I guess I have a good insight into just what the risks are even with a ‘normal’ pregnancy**

No no, we’re taking currently about donor eggs….. you’re bringing it back to surrogacy but the debate we’ve both been referring to in the last few posts have been regarding donor eggs and positives/negatives.

They are very different things. You know my questions and answers were regarding a woman’s ability to decide if she wants to donate her eggs. So why are you going off point?

[quote ldontWanna]@RepentMotherfucker the buyers of course. What did one poster say? That the amount of money spent showed how committed they were?

I suppose though that by paying, any independent and impartial advisors for the mother wouldn't really be independent or impartial. Maybe a fund supervised and distributed by a lawyer that the mother picks or supervising committee that will be initiated and funded specifically for this purpose.

Fuck me tbh... you broke all my brain work with that question. Because I can see significant issues with every possible option (including state funded) and opportunity for exploitation. Back to thinking. [/quote]
You could just use whatever they use for international adoption I suppose? AFAIK the adoptive parents pay for all that. But yes, you would still have to add a level of protection for the mother. I say just continue to ban it.

[quote ldontWanna]@RepentMotherfucker the buyers of course. What did one poster say? That the amount of money spent showed how committed they were?

I suppose though that by paying, any independent and impartial advisors for the mother wouldn't really be independent or impartial. Maybe a fund supervised and distributed by a lawyer that the mother picks or supervising committee that will be initiated and funded specifically for this purpose.

Fuck me tbh... you broke all my brain work with that question. Because I can see significant issues with every possible option (including state funded) and opportunity for exploitation. Back to thinking. [/quote]
Sorry. It wasn't even your job [blush

@RepentMotherfucker the buyers of course. What did one poster say? That the amount of money spent showed how committed they were?

I suppose though that by paying, any independent and impartial advisors for the mother wouldn't really be independent or impartial. Maybe a fund supervised and distributed by a lawyer that the mother picks or supervising committee that will be initiated and funded specifically for this purpose.

Fuck me tbh... you broke all my brain work with that question. Because I can see significant issues with every possible option (including state funded) and opportunity for exploitation. Back to thinking.

Commercial surrogacy and adoption for any reason other than to protect the child from abuse or neglect should remain off the cards in the UK in my opinion. Personally I would like to see a total ban on surrogacy in the UK but at the very least no changes in the current legal protections for baby and/or mother.

I agree RepentMotherfucker. I think there is something important about adoption, adoptive parents make a lifelong commitment to the child and provide stability and security which is not such a feature in the UK fostering system at least.

And Bernard.

Cross post with Clymene.