To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

Thanks for this thread, it has been a very useful resource. I've never seen such a disruptive poster, it was frustrating knowing the intent was to waste time and fill the thread up to close it.

I applaud the patient posters who continued to keep things moving. Clearly some people will not agree that surrogacy should be banned or regulated, and those people are entitled to their opinion.

Personally I don't see why it should be permitted at all, but then I take the view that nobody is ever entitled to a child. I appreciate that it can be upsetting to not have a child, but I also don't think fixing someone's upset is worth permitting surrogacy for.

The adopted man who argues against (particularly international) adoption and surrogacy was interesting, I will read more on his opinions. I already knew about baby Gammy but some of the other stories linked on here were horrifying.

Thanks again to 99% of the contributors.

"A Chinese media outlet subsequently publicized alleged photos of the children's birth certificates, which showed they were born in December 2019 and January 2020 in the US. Zhang and Zheng were named as their parents.
It also published a recording of an alleged phone call, during which Zheng's parents allegedly suggested abandoning the children or giving them up for adoption, while Zheng allegedly expressed frustration that abortion was not a viable option given the mothers were 7 months' pregnant at the time."

www.cnn.com/2021/01/22/china/china-celebrity-surrogacy-scandal-dst-intl-hnk/index.html

I understand there is also a tax evasion issue and she has been dropped as a brand ambassador contract.

www.globaltimes.cn/page/202105/1223377.shtml

It seems the father took custody after Zheng Shuang abandoned the arrangement.

Still. What a mess.

Awful isn't it Helleofabore
All hodgepodge and unregulated.
It's amazing really, I don't know what part of the USA she is in but assuming it's somewhere where the CPs get legal parenthood before birth, the law goes to all that trouble to arrange this but doesn't make provision for when they don't step up to that responsibility.

Yes, I wonder what happened with the Chinese (ex) couple. Wasn't there talk of prosecuting the woman for some reason. I hope the baby has been adopted.

And this is a sweet clip of the babies enjoying watching a pre-Christmas band playing. They sit up well but don't seem to be crawling yet so perhaps 9-10 months, I know some are toddling by then but neither of mine walked until 18 months!

vm.tiktok.com/ZM8oNQjxq/

That horrific Fanny. I wonder what actually happened also with that Chinese star and her ex who had a child being born by surrogate and I think they split or at least she tried to back out just before it was born.

It is a huge risk.

This is her last Tiktok, she explains she's shutting down her videos until after legal proceedings and will update the outcome in the future.

vm.tiktok.com/ZM8oN3aRR/

Had to come back to post this twitter thread.

It seems this woman was a surrogate mother for twins, I think it was her third and last surrogacy, and the buyers commissioning parents haven't collected. Not sure how old they are, approaching one year I would think. I've had a look on her Tiktok and she has locked down the relevant clips so I'm just putting 2 & 2 together from the twitter thread and from the posts that remain public on her tiktok.
Apparently the CPs send money "when they can". She has obviously bonded with them, she seems a good loving person who previously adopted a baby she had fostered despite already having four children of her own. As far as I can make out she has consulted solicitors and it looks like she's going for full custody or adoption or whatever the legal process would be.

I hope she gets it. I can't remember if I posted about another American woman who had a surrogate baby with her until he was about one year before he was sent to the U.K. to the people who had commissioned him. I find it amazing and appalling that these little babies can spend a year bonding with a whole family, not just the woman who has been designated carer, and then they are ripped away from that and handed over to their owners. No oversight from the courts or social services or anything. There's no knowing how many, I can think of three that have been in the news or on Tiktok but there will be many more, it's not exactly something the agencies advertise.

twitter.com/jennieebabie/status/1478330617448304640?s=21

In the UK, you cannot ask your donated eggs to be withheld from use in surrogacy. When you initially donate, you are told that you can ask for your eggs to not be used in any case, as long as it does not contravene the Equality Act 2010 protected characteristics. Yet, when I asked just before I planned to start my fourth cycle, if I could withhold usage from surrogacy, I was told no.

This was news to me. I find it unethical that a woman who gives her eggs away can't have any say in how they are used.

To compliment these recent posts about donor conceived children, and because I tend to listen or watch videos to hear personal stories (which supports the data), here are some links.

Millie Fontana, a sperm donor conceived child with two mothers - a legal one and a biological/genetic one speaks about how it isn't homophobic to want to know who your Dad is, and also about how she felt not knowing him growing up.

Jessica Kern speaking about being a child born of surrogacy and her non existing relationship with her legal/commissioning mother (her words)

For the same producers, a short film, Anonynous Father's Day. Alana Newman, from Anonynous Us gave a very poignant and memorable interview I thought, though all of it is powerful IMO.

I think I've already mentioned Eggsploitation - sorry, this is a long thread! - an example of what can happen to egg donors is here. This is a US, commercial example

For a U.K version, a blog post is here:

stopsurrogacynowuk.org/2021/08/20/egg-donation-and-surrogacy-guest-post-from-kat-howard-radfem_kath-short-read/

That self-reported data backs up this review of research in 2010. 12 years later and no one seems to have paid attention.

slate.com/human-interest/2010/06/new-study-shows-sperm-donor-kids-suffer.html

"Nearly half of donor offspring, and more than half of adoptees, agree, “It is better to adopt than to use donated sperm or eggs to have a child.”

"Two-thirds of adult donor offspring agree with the statement “My sperm donor is half of who I am.” Nearly half are disturbed that money was involved in their conception. More than half say that when they see someone who resembles them, they wonder if they are related. About two-thirds affirm the right of donor offspring to know the truth about their origins."

"About half of them have concerns about or serious objections to donor conception itself, even if parents tell their children the truth."

"Donor offspring may have legal and social parents who take a variety of forms—single, coupled, gay, straight. But they also have, like everyone else, a biological father and mother, two people whose very beings are found in the child’s own body and seen in his or her own image reflected in the mirror."

"The study of 18- to 45-year-olds includes 485 who were conceived via sperm donation, 562 adopted as infants, and 563 raised by their biological parents."

Sorry the 2020 study has more concerning results:

Seventy one percent of participants agreed with the statement “the method of my conception sometimes causes me to feel distressed, angry, or sad” and nearly half (47%) said they sometimes feel sad, disappointed, or angry that their parents chose to create them using donor gametes.

www.wearedonorconceived.com/2020-survey-top/2020-we-are-donor-conceived-survey/

Surely, there needs to be so much discussion about this. 71% is hard to ignore.

I watched those UN testimonies and they are powerful.

Another blog from the perspective of an adult donor-conceived child. It's extremely well written, wise, gut-wrenchingly honest and it speaks to the absolute need to consider the non-consenting child when making policy.

abandonedbydefault.wordpress.com/

[quote Delphinium20]Here's a resource that documents children born of donors. Some are from surrogacy.

www.wearedonorconceived.com/[/quote]
Thank you Delphinium.

Albeit this study is from people actively engaged with that site, however their 2019 study had this result.

Forty eight percent of participants agreed with the statement “the method of my conception causes me to feel distressed, angry, or sad’

That is a huge indication that this is a cause for concern.

www.wearedonorconceived.com/uncategorized/we-are-donor-conceived-2019-survey-results/

Agree with others - this is a superb thread and well done OP for sticking with it. I think many of us started with rose-tinted spectacles on this topic; no surprise given the clever marketing.

Given the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child it is extraordinary how little consideration is given to the children who are 'born to order'.

This video of such children, now adults, reporting back to the UN is so powerful: www.wearedonorconceived.com/homepage-featured-article/donor-conceived-people-present-at-the-united-nations/ (apologies if it has already been posted).

@Delphinium20 thanks for the link, one of the subheadings really stood out to me:
I AM NOT FOR SALE. I AM YOUR DAUGHTER.

Surrogacy and donation legislation should really consider the DC best interests - can it ever benefit a DC to be created as an acquisition?

Here's a resource that documents children born of donors. Some are from surrogacy.

www.wearedonorconceived.com/

It sounds obvious to me now, but I didn't realise how many questions young children ask and their need to belong and desire to not feel different. I had regular pregnancies, but my DCs still had and have questions. The children born through surrogacy will ask questions and learn that they were acquired, like a pet.

I wonder how they feel about that, whether in the future more will speak up about this issue.

*stuck with me

Wow! What an incredible thread! I was on holiday break but read the whole thing! @Blackbird1234 I just want to commend you for your questions and sticking through despite tough responses sent your way. You said you were young, but you're clearly thoughtful and open minded. I hope all the resources will be useful in the future.

I never really thought much about surrogacy until I was older and tried to become pregnant. There is a Friends episode where Phoebe tries to get Rachel to ask if she can keep one of the triplets she birthed for her brother and SIL. Even though it was fiction, Phoebe's sadness at giving up those babies suck with me for years.

Babies need their mothers at birth and while we know this isn't always possible, i feel it should always be the goal. Adoption is a way to give a child a family, but I don't think it's okay to purposely create a child in order to remove it from its mother. I would not have known this until I had my own children- it's why I counsel young girls to be careful to use birth control, it's why I advocate against forced birth in my country (the US is losing abortion rights) and why I am opposed to all advertising/commercialization for egg donation and am thoroughly opposed to surrogacy.

I would not have even considered these topics at your age, so let me again say how impressed I am with your pursuit of information and opinion. Happy New Year!

Here it is for anyone interested.

www.channel4.com/news/georgias-booming-baby-market

I'm looking for a link to a recent radio show about surrogacy in Ukraine. Not posted on this thread but I'm sure I got it from Mumsnet/another thread.
Sort of investigative journalism type thing, the (female) reporter was concerned for the women but reluctant to take a view that it should be banned as they needed the income so concluded it wasn't straightforward.
Does it ring any bells with anyone?
It wasn't on bbc sounds I'm sure, I wasn't familiar with the channel.

Surrogacy sits at the cross roads of ultra capitalism where anything (or anyone) can be bought or sold and anti-feminism (where women are particularly vulnerable for a number of reasons).

I like that Red.
I'm not very good at the political/feminist theory side of things. I love a neat sound bite! 👌