If women cannot be defined biologically what happens to sex based oppression?

Ive had a situation at work where before i knew that trans people (that has now been extended to how anyone feels on the day) were using the ladies, where i walked in and saw someone that i couldnt 'place' my 'inner self' was telling me that there was something 'different' and i needed to work out what it was...so whilst i didnt stare for minutes on end, my glance was probably a millisecond or two longer than it would be if a female was for example, dressed in an outlandish way...this delay was my brain catching up with the situation, not trans phobia, simply subconsciously assessing the situation from a risk perspective as women have done throughout history @ErynIsTrans is that not something that you can appreciate?

Now.my brain has registered who that person is, next time i will not have the slightly prolonged glance because my brain has stored that persons face and identified that they are allowed to be there and shouldnt pose a risk because i am at work. Subconsciously i probably do this with everyone in a toilet scenario but with females the recognition is faster...although part of the recognition process in public toilets may include whether a female appears 'dodgy' eg drugs, begging, likely to engage me in a conversation i dont want.

And JorisBohnson I did have a period of gender dysphoria as a young teenager. I am sure that many on this forum have had.

I sure as hell would never have used it as a cudgel to manipulate other's discussion in this way. Even as a 13 year old.

I also find it quite enlightening to see those who 'do' use it thus. It says a great deal about them, don't you think?

You are very right to be angry at such attempts. I agree!!!

Aww... thanks.

You've made a mistake @JorisBohnson2, Hellofabore was quoting and responding to ErynIsTrans dictat on what we can and cannot talk about.

Helleofabore was quoting Eryn, Joris!

Exactly, vest.

Which is fine. This is the richness of human existence, and the joys of living in a modern liberal democracy. We can all construct large parts of our own narratives.

What you can’t do is use far fetched identity stories to make laws or run countries.

Nor can you force or compel others to believe them and validate your belief in them or insist they do not talk about or refer to things that you don't want to hear. That's totalitarian not liberal or progressive.

The utter vapidity of the reasoning makes my teeth itch.

I have a “masculine” haircut (short hair), sometimes wear mens clothes (I’m 6’ with big shoulders and some mens things fit me better), and I use testosterone (because of early menopause). By genderist logic, I tick all the boxes to be non binary.

However, I am a woman. My sex is female. I don’t have a gender identity because to my mind, the concept of a gender identity is just, as foxgoosefinch points out above, a story we tell ourselves about the world. It’s a narrative (sometimes a quite fantastical one).

The only difference between me and the soi-distant neptuniuns of this world is our own narratives.

Which is fine. This is the richness of human existence, and the joys of living in a modern liberal democracy. We can all construct large parts of our own narratives.

What you can’t do is use far fetched identity stories to make laws or run countries.

On another thread, Eryn mentions that Eryn has kids.

I wonder if Eryn has actually given birth to these kids and if so, if Eryn ever donates blood and ticks the 'male' box, that any male receiving that blood is at a higher risk of death.

I mean, no offence Eryn, but I don't want any males dying as a result of this lie. Good males, bad males, nonchalant males.

And they say feminists hate men.

please don't bring up chromosomes, they're unreliable and give me dysphoria as they make me feel like i could never truly be non-binary

Not only tone policing, but topic policing.

If you cannot accept that your sex is female and will remain female, no matter how much philosophy is applied to it, your material reality will be that you will be female, with chemical and other body modifications. I would be surprised at the integrity of any medical profession telling you any different.

Because it is harmful. If you have been pregnant and donate blood without disclosing your sex, you could cause tremendous harm to the males who receive your blood.

It might help your mental health to live in a world where you are unchallenged on that, but sadly we all have to interact with the wider world and how we impact it.

"I would begin to get strange looks from the women in there, so for my own safety I use the men's"

Could you elaborate on this? Is it your genuine belief that women are going to assault you in the ladies' toilets?

And you think that using the men's is safer (then men's loos, where feminine presenting or gay men and trans women claim they are terribly at risk from the threat of male violence)? You know of course that some of their main arguments for trans women being in women's spaces is because of the threat men pose to gender non conforming individuals? Yet you seem to be saying that you feel "safer" there?

Is this based on any evidence from reality, or is it just all a kind of theatrical pretence?

I am eager to hear this reasoning. Because, it makes a total mockery of any male claiming that the female single sex spaces are 'safer'.

Strange that...

And we have also had a few transitioned males who have also pointed out that they use the male toilets.

Agreed. I'm beginning to think the govt should bring back national service. Not just military service, I mean working with the elderly, disadvantaged, disabled - doing something to help others. Would leave a lot less time to be dazzled by their own magnificence. I forsee an awful lot of regret in the future.

Crikey. What a number this ideology has done on our young women.

Its made Eryn truly believe that gender non conforming women will be better off in a loo full of men with their cocks out under the expectation of total privacy from the opposite sex.

These girls and young women are being used over and over.

Pretty sure that is the real point of the entire thing. If women can’t collect data on our rights being violated and we can’t advocate for making education and the workplace not just accepting but truly compatible for our biological reality, then the system can keep us from getting the real equality we deserve.

sweetie, or whatever the NB nomenclature is...

it's not women in the female toilets who'll do you harm. The stats are very clear. it's male people who hurt female people. If you find that hard to believe, have a quick google of Karen Ingala Smith - she curates the piles of dead women that no-one gives a shit about.

Please, and I mean this sincerely, please, piss in the ladies. We all know you are female and none of the males like you getting your vulva out and it can make them go a bit squiffy.

Please piss next to me.

(I reserve the right to make clanger noises, but that's how you'd know that I might take the piss but I'd protect your lawful rights and sort out any shit that your haircut might bring your way)

"I would begin to get strange looks from the women in there, so for my own safety I use the men's"

Could you elaborate on this? Is it your genuine belief that women are going to assault you in the ladies' toilets?

And you think that using the men's is safer (then men's loos, where feminine presenting or gay men and trans women claim they are terribly at risk from the threat of male violence)? You know of course that some of their main arguments for trans women being in women's spaces is because of the threat men pose to gender non conforming individuals? Yet you seem to be saying that you feel "safer" there?

Is this based on any evidence from reality, or is it just all a kind of theatrical pretence?

I plan to start taking testosterone, and eventually have gender affirming surgery, so at that point my sex would be male (please don't bring up chromosomes, they're unreliable and give me dysphoria as they make me feel like i could never truly be non-binary) so although thats what the doctors decided when the analysed my body at birth, my sex will hopefully change (or at least to an extent)

You know that hormones and surgery produce cosmetic effects on your body but that you never actually "change sex", don't you? And that many of these treatments can't always be performed, and always carry serious risks? If you don't, I can't imagine that you can be said to have given informed consent to the procedures.

You also know that no doctors "analysed your body at birth", no?

You sound very young and very naive. "Neptunian" or not, you do know that genders and neopronouns are all make believe, don't you? They can't be made to be real, even if you have some of the most drastic surgeries?

You are allowed to dress and cut your hair however you like, whatever you "identify" as! But, "identities" are stories, narratives and beliefs in people's imaginations, ones that are exchanged through language between the subjective, interior world of the self, and the social world of our relationships. They are sometimes fun, and sometimes socially expedient, and sometimes oppressive, and sometimes tell us useful things about the world. But they are social and constructed, not material reality. We all know perfectly well that social and imaginative constructions like "non-binary" are not real. You do not and should not have to change your body to fit an imaginative "identity". Especially not something someone made up on the internet that calls itself:

A non-binary xenogender in the celestial gender system. The original definition of neptunian is a gender linked to the void and to a soft, celestial, masculine energy. It is never hyper masculine. It is not male-aligned, simply linked. Ones who identify as Neptunian may feel different amounts of masculine energy at different times.

These are pretend, made up things for kids and teenagers. No-one should be thinking of having drastic major surgery that will affect them lifelong because of some sub-fantasy-novel level make-believe they read on the internet. You might not like to hear it, but it is true, unfortunately. Rather than thinking about hormones or chromosomes, you would do better to read some good classic novels, or get outside for a walk, or take up photography or volunteering, or another pursuit where you can meet people in real life and get some social interaction in person. I wish you well.

We fundamentally disagree on who is a woman so there's probably no point arguing with you further about males using male spaces.

There's plenty of evidence available of how vulnerable women and girls are when single sex spaces become mixed sex by the virtue of language obfuscation.

I'm sorry you think you will get beaten up for using the facilities of your sex but I stand by my point that statistically you are less safe using male spaces than female ones even if it doesn't feel that way to you.

For me, how unsafe or safe I feel isn't due to men being sexist. For me, it is entirely due to how likely I am to get beaten up when I leave. You are free to have your own opinion. But imagine how likely a trans woman is if she went into the male toilets. If men are so violent and terrible, how do you think they'll react when they see a woman come in? That woman is much more likely to get beaten up/raped by those men than she is to rape a woman in the women's bathroom. You talk about my double standards when you are much the same, if not worse.

No its because of all of the women in the female toilets. As I was presenting as male they would often stare at me as if i didn't belong. I am an AFAB person. I feel safer from transphobia if i go to the men's toilets.

So why are other women not allowed to have opinions on how safe they feel in toilets depending on who is in there with them? Double standard much.

By the way, you may feel safer in the mens but statistically speaking you really aren't.