What do you expect transwomen to do then?

Funny isn't it? What we expect is a proper conversation.

Not that someone ceases to exist, stops presenting as they do, goes away, shuts up, stops.

We want an honest, mutually respectful conversation.

Probably nothing like the answer John etc would want to read as it leaves them nowhere to hang their 'transphobes! bigots!'

Should they not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason?

I will guess from the user name this is a male person, who believes that all resources belong to males, who gets what is in the gift of males, that male people say other male people should get whatever they need from female resources (after all, no skin off the nose of anyone male, is it?) and there might be at some point some question of reasonability..... say if it was absolutely proven beyond all question in an objective, male approved, peer reviewed, statistically nicely chatted about and rubber stamped way that enough female physical harm had been done for male people to say 'hmm, maybe we have a responsibility here?'

The male entitlement is off the scale.

It's the same as saying to females, we require you to enact a belief that this male person is female, despite that the requirement comes from a mutual understanding of male entitlement and authority to so direct you, to expect you to accommodate to your own disadvantage, and the remembering of the male person's higher status and rights will be a full part of it at all times. You will serve and support this inequality while at the same time enacting that you don't see it or believe it is there.

With all due respect blibbyblobby I only read the final page of that thread but I am not so sure that the poster you were discussing this with will venture here on this board.

I mean, you have posed a reasonable first post that can be built on.

I certainly don’t feel as optimistic as you that it would now actually result in women getting their needs 100% considered. And I may be more hard line in some areas such as language than others.

But I also expect some transitioned males to stop with the dogmatic pronouncements that they are ‘just like other women’. There are many transitioned males who do understand and admit that they are male and living a male version of what they believe a female is.

Like you, I think a healthy start would be to except they are not ‘women’ for every purpose. And to stop forcing this.

I expect them to do what they used to do before their identity became hijacked by a violent men's rights movement.

I’d like it to be accepted that “feeling like a woman” is just that, a feeling, not a reality. It’s a desire, or projection, or psychic construction. “Identification” is a form of adopting a psychological or social narrative, not a magical transubstantiation or essence. It isn’t something actual that confers a set of rights.

Then we might be able to talk about extending courtesies and legal fictions (eg. in the GRA), and how far these should go, in a meaningful way.

Yep.

I expect transwomen to do what the transwomen I know do. To know they are male. To know that they cannot known what being a woman actually us. To know how to discuss the discrete needs of women and transwomen and to honour them. To recognise the incredible damage being done by Stonewall and many trans allies, TRAs, to the rights of women and trans people alike.

I do know where that conversation can go as I have had it many times over the last 5 - 10 years. In one instance that conversation leads to a 60 year old transwomen re-evaluating 40years of her life and acknowledging that she has been blessed never to have been challenged and that her life has had to change as she is now no longer able to fool herself that she ever convinced any woman into thinking her make body was actually female (scuse the he ing and she ing, he is male but I've known her since we were about 17).

Respect us a two way street. Any transwoman who cannot stop and hear, acknowledge, the perspective of women is never going to be part of any solution. They will only ever perpetuate the problem.

Why is question even being asked of women? Ask the men.

Quite. Mutual respect and equality of expectations - not just demanded and enforced from females - would fix most of this.

As soon as we start into the 'within reason' there is the admittance that TW and female people are not one and the same, and that the impact has to be considered when they are forced teamed. There is also increasing evidence that female needs and issues and TQ+ needs and issues cannot be met in the same resource or brief, because the needs conflict and the existence of females as a separate group with specific need is in itself perceived as hostile. In most cases once a female only resource tries to include TQ+ it becomes by necessity wholly TQ+ focused, and female service users become a secondary priority handled only on TQ+ terms, and some are straight out excluded and bounced out. This is not inclusion. It's been tried. It has not worked. It's largely been the intolerance of female need and concerns and inclusion and diversity on the part of the TQ+ political position that has broken it. With generosity and tolerance towards females and a range of provisions including female only amongst women's provisions, it might have worked. That ship has now sailed.

TQ+ needs should be met. In additional services, resources, facilities, and how that happens is down to TQ+ people to negotiate. Females continue to be half the human race and require sex based provisions and equality, regardless of male wishes for them not to have it.