What do you expect transwomen to do then?

"It's more that I think we and they are both, in different ways, trying to fight the dominant male culture to make spaces for ourselves. So I think joining our perspectives is of mutual benefit."

damn thats the funniest thing I've read all day are you new? maybe look at Twitter and see the hate filled posts they put up or read the news, or watch the sport like swimming where they muscle in and dont give a damn. the majority, at least the majority of vocal ones/ones in the public eys are misogynists.

It's more that I think we and they are both, in different ways, trying to fight the dominant male culture to make spaces for ourselves. So I think joining our perspectives is of mutual benefit.

I cannot get on board with this. There are very few men who identify as trans currently trying to fight the dominant male culture. Predominately we see these men demanding that they access women's spaces and be treated as women in sports, etc.

If they are trying to fight the dominant male culture, why do they show such contempt for women who speak about women's rights?

Why do they use slurs to refer to us?

Why do they reject preserving single-sex spaces for women and offering a gender-neutral or mixed sex space for men who identify as trans and women who are happy to share with them?

Why are they determined to appropriate or erase language that is specific to females?

Why do they insist that lesbians who do not want to date a person with a penis is a bigot?

Why do they demand we ignore our instincts?

Why do they try to compel how we speak?

On issues that affect women, on the patriarchy, on misogyny, I feel no fellowship with a man who identifies as trans. I see them as part of the patriarchy, part of dominant male culture. Is there any better illustration of this than the fact that men who identify as trans are so publicly celebrated while women who are impacted by their actions are ignored? Lia Thomas. Laurel Hubbard. They LITERALLY took the places of women in sports competitions. Rachel Levine, a man who transitioned in his 50s, is celebrated as the first "female" (!!!) four-star admiral? Torrey Peters making the shortlist of the Women's Prize for Fiction thereby denying a woman a place?

Let them make space for themselves, sure, but it doesn't have to be in our spaces. When they identify out of manhood, they leave a space empty that they previously occupied. Let them annexe those spaces. Let them negotiate with their fellow men. Women spent too long fighting for their rights just to give them up on the say so of a small subset of men.

As long as men who identify as trans claim they are women (TWAW) then our perspectives will never intersect. When they accept they are not women, can never be women, can never be female, then we might be able to have a conversation about the dominant male culture.

I dont know about you but the more they try to silence us the more I want to take to the streets. The Suffragettes had to set fire to things and smash stuff up to be listened to, sad men still have not learned from that and still think they can bully us into silent compliance.

the tide seems to be turning tho and hopefully that wont be necessary, but we shall see.

But I think it's entirely reasonable that, say, a ladies night at a nightclub where women get free drinks should be based on gender

Ladies get free drinks because men think it hightens their chances of getting more male customers who think they will have a higher chance of getting laid (because the ladies are drunk). And this makes them more money.

I hate to use the phrase moronic but I'm struggling here. Do you really not understand basic behavioural patterns?

The problem is we can't say what we want to happen without being accused of prejudice

Third spaces are the only possible solution. The Layla Morans and other allied women will be very happy to use them as they mention so frequently how mixed sex spaces work fine for them. Parents with children of the opposite sex will use them. Female spaces can then remain for females only alongside, and when the day comes when they're cobwebbed, unused and no one needs them any more, I suppose we're done needing sex segregation. But it must be a choice, and the range of provisions cannot exclude anyone. That will involve TQ+ politics respecting that inclusion means female people too, and respecting that other people's needs get met in addition.

It will also have to be faced up to as to what the real issue with third spaces is. And that requiring people as a resource in any circumstances is just a flat no.

What do you expect transwomen to do then? Should they not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason?

But why? Why should they "not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason"?

Why?

Men who identify as trans enjoy all the same rights that their fellow men have, as well being afforded the right not to be discriminated against based on their chosen gender identity.

People jump straight to "What do we do about transwomen?" as if it is a given that we have all accepted that "transwomen" are somehow different and special to other men.

Let's back it up a little. They are just men. Men who don't want to be seen as men, but men none the less. Men who wanted to be treated as special based on their feelings and chosen identity. Men who, while presenting to the world as their idea of what a woman is, will still amongst their cohort exhibit the same traits that can be identified amongst men in general - kindness, shyness, outgoingness, violent tendencies, empathy, misogyny, etc. etc. The whole glorious tapestry of humanity.

This nonsense has to stop. It is the greatest hoodwink of the past decade, the idea that this subset of men are something other than men. It doesn't matter to me that some are kind or harmless or bullying or violent. We don't allow other men access to women's single-sex basis based on whether or not they are kind or harmless.

Answer me this question first: What compelling reason is there to give this subset of men more rights than their fellow men, especially when this infringe on the rights of women?

This is a men's issue which should be addressed amongst men and women shouldn't even be asked "what do you expect transwomen to do then?" Asking that question is putting the mental and emotional load back on women

Additionally, it is an extremely disingenuous question to ask because women have been saying what should be done but men who identify as trans just want to hear one answer. They have shown time and time again that they do not care about women's concerns. The only answer they want to hear is, "We should allow transwomen unfettered access to all women's spaces, sports, prizes, everything. They should be treated as women."

What should men who identify as trans do? Accept who they are and accept that if they choose to live as their "authentic self", no one else is obliged to go along with it. None of us gets exactly what we want in life. We make decisions, we weigh up the consequences of those decisions and we decide if the outcome of our decision will be worth the consequences, good and bad.

What I would like them to do is to figure it out for themselves. To sort their own protected spaces and stop relying on women to sort it all out for them.

What I expect that they will do is continue pushing into women’s spaces and complaining that women aren’t being accommodating of their needs.

And then we work together, case by case, to see what can be reasonably opened up as mixed sex/single gender, and what might justify some third provisions, and what is just plain female and doesn’t really intersect with trans women’s needs and lives full stop.

Most people don't have a gender if it defined as something to do with identity and nothing to do with biology. So actually the question is, and can only ever be, mixed sex or single sex.

These female only provisions are, in our current society, needed, don't get me wrong about that. The problem is that once they exist, they become a reason not to solve the problem (hence the push for trans women to be "safe" in female spaces rather than turning analysis on the male behaviour that makes them unsafe). They also contribute to the construction of women as other and the fetishisation of female private spaces that drives some males to want to be in them. I understand the point about dignity as well as safety but I also know (first hand) this is also to some extent cultural as well.

I don't agree. The fact that we have women's spaces is not inherently a reason to not bother to make everywhere else safe. The continued need for such spaces is a reflection of the fact that society continues to oppress women and treat them as objects to serve men's desires. This cultural oppression is what causes men to want to intrude on women's spaces and not the existence of the spaces themselves - i.e. without the protective spaces, they would just find another way to assert their dominance and control of women. We should not be arguing, in any way, against sex-segregated spaces. The spaces don't directly solve the issues but by removing barriers to women talking and thinking together, they do create a context which is less disabling of women's attempts to say no to the continued oppression. They also allow women to more easily see themselves as actually valuable human beings.

I just want to add that we wouldnt even have a lot of the sex segregated things we have today if it wasnt for WW1 and WW2, they didnt give a shit that we had no womens toilets or changing rooms in the workplace etc until they desperately needed us to work replacing the men in the factories, fields and shops.

The fact the question is being asked shows they are still thinking like a man, everything is about them, and what others should do for them, they are the centre of the universe and no one else matters etc.

you want shelters? build some for yourselves like we did and fight for funding like we had too.

you want to use a toilet thats not the mens, get your own and the same applies to changing rooms.

dont want to be in mens prisons campaign for your own spaces then.

dont want to compete in mens sport? campaign for your own in that too.

wasn't that long ago that everything was unisex, mental asylums, prisons, hospitals, we fought for single sex for those things and the toilets hell to start with women didnt have public toilets at all it was men only women were meant to be chained to the kitchen, it took much campaigning from The Ladies Sanitary Association to get toilets women were allowed to use. and we still dont have all the sports men are allowed to compete in at Olympic level.

Women for decades had to fight for their rights so I would expect Transwomen to do the same, their own spaces for their own needs and not just take rights away from women, rights that have been hard fought for decades! Sometimes I want to say piss off and do the hard work yourselves because we had to and still have to. If you really believe you akin to a woman than graft like we had to - dont be the typical male where everything comes easy.

I expect them to do, as others have done, things like this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3752551-Petition-for-third-spaces-Fionne-Miranda

And then we work together, case by case, to see what can be reasonably opened up as mixed sex/single gender, and what might justify some third provisions, and what is just plain female and doesn’t really intersect with trans women’s needs and lives full stop.

I don’t know where that conversation will end up,and I don’t need to know. Maybe we will come to an agreement that “woman” becomes an entirely gender term that coexists with an entirely separate name for the female-bodied

No. Absolutely not. Like most posters here I 100% disagree with this. That's absolutely not going to be happening.

Case by case can fuck off with its boundary blurring nonsense and mixed sex can fuck off and anyone who thinks the word woman is up for gender grabs can fuck right off too.

I expect a trans woman to stay out of female sport. We’ve already seen female records being broken by trans women who have lived for 40 years as a man, trained as a man, been taken seriously and had better access to funding and training as a man, with at least 19 key physiological differences (that hormones won’t change) that benefit them in sport.
It just takes the absolute piss out of us.

To be proud to be a transwoman and accept that is not the same as being a women. Not worse, not better, but different. Own it and demand third spaces to suit your needs.

I want people to understand or acknowledge that there are (according to studies) two types of transwomen.

Hence the disconnect between transwomen who are often understanding, sympathetic friends who totally get it, and transwomen who feel like enemies.

Everything I have read, (and 90% of it is from transwomen themselves), leads me to believe that there are far more of the latter than there are of the former. And I've been reading about this for at least six years have never wavered in that opinion. If anything, it's just more obvious.

Effeminate men with gender dysphoria is one thing. Cross dressers, transvestites or AGP men is a quite another.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that any men should be in women spaces.

Women are not a resource.

We are not here to validate men, whether it's a mental health issue, or a sexual fetish.

We are actually human. People in our own right. With our own set of circumstances and characteristics that place us all in the same category.

But when you are talking about a cohort, who not only commit 98% of all sexual offences, but where the actual sub category also includes sexual fetishists for whom a woman's space is a turn on, I will never understand any woman thinking that access should be granted on a case-by-case basis.

Sorry, OP.

I believe the reason you run into such difficulty with getting some transwomen to accept this discourse, is precisely because of the distinction between the two types.

If you take a look at the trans widows threads on here, you will realise how utter blindness and a determination on a certain path, to the the exclusion of every possible other consideration, is a characteristic of certain transwomen.

I expect men who identify as trans:

• To acknowledge that only adult human females are women.
• To accept that they are a subset of men not a subset of women.
• To desist from expecting admission to spaces that women expect to be single-sex.
• To desist from claiming knowledge or experience of womanhood.
• To stop reducing women to stereotypes by claiming to be a "woman" based on liking to wear clothes typically associated with women, growing their hair long, wearing make-up.
• To accept that I, a woman, do not feel any sense of fellowship with them and I see them as men.
• To acknowledge that threats to their safety come from their fellow men and not from women who speak up for women's rights.
• To acknowledge that women and girls all over the world are persecuted, abused, killed because of their sex and that men who identify as trans need to stop claiming they are the most vulnerable demographic in society.
• To acknowledge that women have justifiable reasons to feel uncomfortable around men and that just because a man presents as his idea of a woman, we still instinctively perceive them as men.
• To accept the proposal of gender-neutral/third spaces for toilets, changing rooms, etc, and not dismiss that proposal on the grounds that they are women and therefore must have access to women's facilities.
• To acknowledge that they have an unfair advantage in sports and therefore stay out of women's categories in sporting competitions.
• To not put themselves forward as candidates for all-woman shortlists in elections, for competitions or prizes (for example, the Women's Prize for Fiction) that are for women, or for jobs which are expected to be filled by a woman candidate (for example, CEO of a rape crisis centre).
• To accept that they cannot compel how other people speak.
• To accept they still have male privilege and their insistence that women accept them as women is a manifestation of this privilege.
• To seek solutions that enable them to live their best lives that do not infringe on women's existing rights or force women to accept a definition of women that includes men.
• To expand what it means to be a man rather than demand that we render the word "woman" meaningless.

It almost gleeful isn't it? The absolute entitlement of it, causing a stir where none need have happened.

It's the same with many TWs on YouTube who crow about their use of female bathrooms. I think the one I am thinking of even said "try and stop me".
Male entitlement at its finest.
And this is the world we now find ourselves in, faced by a clearly male bodied individual with male anatomy, in an intimate, private, vulnerable place, AND WE CAN'T SAY A FUCKING THING.

But.............be kind wimpens.

Tw need to sort themselves out and leave women the hell alone. That's what I expect them to do. Do the damn work yourselves.

Transwomen's transition status, physical appearance and performance of stereotypes is irrelevant. They do not change sex. Transwomen remain male. This thought policing and colonisation of womanhood is being done by males.