Page 2 | What do you expect transwomen to do then?

Blibbyblobby · 2021-12-29T12:59:51+00:00

**@JohnHuffam1812** asked me a question on the woke thread that I think deserves an answer. The thread closed before I could post it but I’m answering here and hope that *JohnHuff* will see it and maybe give his/her/their thoughts. *What do you expect transwomen to do then? Should they not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason?* I expect trans women to acknowledge they are not female and that female experiences are also valid. I expect them to take as a starting point that the existing female-only spaces - ie everything defined as “women-only” when woman was synonymous with female - remain single sex for now. And then we work together, case by case, to see what can be reasonably opened up as mixed sex/single gender, and what might justify some third provisions, and what is just plain female and doesn’t really intersect with trans women’s needs and lives full stop. I don’t know where that conversation will end up, ^and I don’t need to know^. Maybe we will come to an agreement that “woman” becomes an entirely gender term that coexists with an entirely separate name for the female-bodied. Maybe, as trans women learn more about female people’s lives, they will decide the thing they recognise in themselves is not womanhood and the journey goes somewhere else. Maybe we will see a way forward that reduces the importance of both sex and gender for everyone and as we gain a more truly equal culture, the need to be seen as the “gender” one “truly is” just seems less and less important. The point is, the first step is to communicate fairly, respectfully and openly. Without that we won’t be able to find reasonable solutions. But once we do communicate fairly, respectfully and openly, reasonable solutions will be surprisingly easy to find. Basically, I expect trans women to respect our differences, and I expect us all to respect each other, speak honestly, listen with acceptance, and take it from there.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 30/12/2021 09:18

I think there are likely a lot of the same insights and feelings of mismatch being hidden under different names and the best way to defang Genderism is to get that out in the open.

But the different names serve different purposes and they benefit different people, so good luck going getting that out into the open and staying in one piece.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 30/12/2021 09:17

But their whole ideology rests on not respecting our differences.

More specifically, the "transwomen are women" ideology rests on not respecting our differences - physical, social, experiential. Agree to give that one up and I'll listen. Or is it a necessary part of "transgender ideology"?

Datun · 30/12/2021 09:16

@Blibbyblobby

Not because there are vast gaps of difference but because I think there are likely a lot of the same insights and feelings of mismatch being hidden under different names and the best way to defang Genderism is to get that out in the open.

It is out in the open. Its long been noted that anxiety about societal imposed sex specific roles is common. As is girls' concern about their developing bodies in a sexualised world.

The fundamental difference with transgenderism is it doesn't bust gender by breaking out of the roles. It reinforces them by claiming the person must be the other sex because of the way they personally feel about their gender roles.

They assume it is they who are 'wrong' for disliking it, not society for forcing it on them.

No amount of telling trans people that this isn't the case, that these roles are imposed, works. They believe its innate and they have the wrong set.

It's a cornerstone of feminism to expose this - hence gender critical. Long before transgenderism existed, feminists were criticising the roles and expectations imposed on women.

It's necessary because women are oppressed on the basis of their biology and gender (imposed roles and expectations) is the way it's done.

Transgenderism agrees with gender - it just claims that some people have the wrong one.

It has to reinforce the boxes in order to force society to accept they are now in a different one.

You definitely see the problem. You see how it's happened. What I don't think you're getting is that the 'solution' transgenderism has provided perpetuates it to dizzying and dangerous levels.

A tiny example was from a transwoman on here, years back. They said they could only feel 'colourful and vibrant' presenting as a woman.

Feminism says anyone should be able to be colourful and vibrant. Its not sex specific. (That's gender busting).

Transgenderism says only women can, therefore this man must be one (that's gender reinforcing).

(Actually, I think 'vibrancy' was a euphemism for something else, but he had to say something. 😁)

When feminists pointed out that actually it's sexist to believe that these gender roles are innate and if you feel a certain way you must be the opposite sex, proponents of transgenderism stopped talking about it in that fashion, and started to talk about being born in the wrong body, or having an inner essence.

It goes out of its way to reinforce gender but as soon as you start asking questions about what that means, specifically, you get zero answers.

Try it. Try asking a transwoman what are the top three things that make them think they're a woman.

You'll either get sexist stereotypes, or absolutely nothing.

allmywhat · 30/12/2021 09:15

So is it really discomfort with sex roles, or is it about sexed bodies? Is body dysphoria “gender” dysphoria or sex dysphoria? It all gets mixed up together in the gender ideology narrative

If you assume the narrative is in part shaped by autogynephiles the confusion makes sense. There’s physiologic/ body-focused AGP and AGP that is more focused on social interactions and being treated like a woman. I forget all the different types, but considering that as well as different types of AGP all kinds of other motivations/etiologies for gender dysphoria are lumped under “trans”, the incoherent narrative is only to be expected.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 30/12/2021 08:57

Trans identities, being at heart a rejection of the dominant gender/sex constructions

They are at heart a partial rejection of some of the dominant whatevers. And some trans identities reject some constructions, some of them reject others. A bit like camp in a way - also a rejection of the dominant gender/sex constructions that often manages to be very misogynist indeed.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 30/12/2021 08:33

Basically, I expect trans women to respect our differences

OP, you’re taking a decent and tolerant stance. But their whole ideology rests on not respecting our differences.So despite all women’s efforts to be kind while maintaining some boundaries, we’re not going to get that respect.

Original poster

Blibbyblobby · 30/12/2021 08:26

@CheeseMmmm

Is this not just obvious?

Yes Cheese, that's exactly why I think we should be talking and listening to each other with respect. Not because there are vast gaps of difference but because I think there are likely a lot of the same insights and feelings of mismatch being hidden under different names and the best way to defang Genderism is to get that out in the open.

I'm dropping out now. There's been some good discussions but probably gone as far as it can here, at least for me.

I might link to the thread now and then to prove FWR isn't an echo chamber even for the regulars.

OP posts:

bordermidgebite · 30/12/2021 08:14

@foxgoosefinch

Except a lot of what trans people say about rejecting their birth sex is half about gender and half about sex - eg. being uncomfortable in their sexed body, having “gender dysphoria” about the body, and so on. So is it really discomfort with sex roles, or is it about sexed bodies? Is body dysphoria “gender” dysphoria or sex dysphoria? It all gets mixed up together in the gender ideology narrative, so I don’t think it’s remotely as simple as just rejecting the patriarchal constructs of gender.

Although some of the rejection of the sexes body can be driven by the association of that with the specific role

Abs for girls sexualisation and abuse can play a part , which is again society driven

But yes complex

CheeseMmmm · 30/12/2021 05:44

Is this not just obvious?

CheeseMmmm · 30/12/2021 05:43

The insistence that this feeling is minority and the vast majority are 100% comfy in sex role is plain wrong.

What is true is that hardly anyone who feels that way would describe themselves as trans. They understand that people are all different and stereotypes/ ideals of male female are not how it works in real life. Even those who insist that certain stereotypes are 'natural' etc.

They do not think that's my gender identity and that makes me somehow a mixture of man/ woman, or neither, or the one that's the opposite sex to me.

Most people don't think about it, just do their thing knowing that it's stereotype- roles. Not rules! Not being like stereotype in all ways does not mean not a member of group those stereotypes apply to.

CheeseMmmm · 30/12/2021 05:30

Blibby

'
The way I see it (and this is why I really wish there was open communication, so I could learn more) is that first thing, the “I don’t match the type of person that society tells me my sex should be” feeling is real. That’s based entirely on their own knowledge of themself.'

Thing is, stacks of men women girls boys feel like that, to a greater or lesser extent. And I'm fairly sure plenty of people have felt like that whenever and wherever socially enforced sex roles have existed.

When the term feminist was coined, what it meant.

Then a chunk of women who felt that way described themselves as, carried out activism, read about, joined groups etc described as feminist.

I have been very aware of and very uncomfortable with gender/sex role stuff for as long as I can remember. Age 4, 5 maybe...

I felt confused, annoyed, unhappy, flummoxed by just so so much. I felt I must be missing something. But no idea what.

When much older heard about feminism (80s) I thought yep that's me.

This idea that it's unusual to notice and feel all sorts of negative things about sex role.

It's not at all.

I don't know anyone who doesn't reject at least some of the expectations. Men and women. And pretty much all would never say I'm feminist. Or I'm trans.

quixote9 · 30/12/2021 05:12

As Floisme already said,

"Why is question even being asked of women? Ask the men."

Original poster

Blibbyblobby · 30/12/2021 00:15

@RepentMotherfucker

If you think this thread isPART OF THATthen you are not listening. It is not about “what can we give up to appease oppressors?” I explained that very early on. It’s about what do I expect from trans women (because I was asked) and why I think what I expect will help us move forward.

Honestly?

I think you're a bit out of your depth here.

And I think you started this thread and made a couple of offhand comments about 'ladies nights' and it didn't go your way and now you're doubling down and really I would stop digging. Feminists do not want the debate you are suggesting. Neither do TW from what I can see. And it would only work against us anyway for all the very good reasons people have been posting for the last three pages.

I don't want ANYTHING from TW. I have absolutely no desire to participate in any discussion about trans issues. Except where they threaten women's rights and there is absolutely no debate about that, it simply cannot be allowed to happen.

No worries. I’m not out of my depth, I just disagree with you, but thanks for caring.

The Ladies Night was a passing comment in this context but not offhand, in fact it is something I’ve been thinking about for a long time, what some valid single-gender things might be and the fact that what (Some? Many? The most vocal? I don’t know) trans women want from womanhood seems to be the bits Feminists would want to get rid of anyway.

I understand exactly where you are coming from by saying “not my problem” and in a black and white world you’d be right, but in the messy real world I think refusing to explore the possibilities that would be opened up by allowing gender to exist alongside sex ironically risks pushing people - not so much the TRAs and late transitioning males (though maybe some of the latter), but the mass of younger people exploring trans identities - who do feel a genuine and rational gender mismatch under patriarchal gender roles, towards trans ideology because TRAs are listening and giving them a story that explains how they feel.

OP posts:

Appledrop · 29/12/2021 23:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn - posted on wrong thread.

Original poster

Blibbyblobby · 29/12/2021 23:56

@foxgoosefinch

Except a lot of what trans people say about rejecting their birth sex is half about gender and half about sex - eg. being uncomfortable in their sexed body, having “gender dysphoria” about the body, and so on. So is it really discomfort with sex roles, or is it about sexed bodies? Is body dysphoria “gender” dysphoria or sex dysphoria? It all gets mixed up together in the gender ideology narrative, so I don’t think it’s remotely as simple as just rejecting the patriarchal constructs of gender.

Or does the discomfort with the body arise from rejection of the role? As you say, it’s all mixed up. Which is why I think communicating about it properly is the right place to start.

OP posts:

Original poster

Blibbyblobby · 29/12/2021 23:54

@Shedmistress

And as shed has so helpfully and insistently highlighted, the Ladies at a Ladies Night do not go there with the expectation of there being no males present, quite the opposite...If you want to argue, as shed I think is, that Ladies Night itself is a bad thing that should not happen that is a different and valid point, but to defend this thing in particular as a female-only activity seems an odd hill to die on, if not actually counterproductive in forcing a gender stereotype right back onto the female body.

No, my response was based around your comment about free drinks for ladies in a nightclub. Not about specific female only groups or events.

Yeah, that’s what I said. You and I were talking about Ladies Night at nightclubs which are very much not women-only spaces. Jelly misunderstood.

OP posts:

JellySaurus · 29/12/2021 23:21

OK, I missed that you were referring to a specific type of Ladies' Night. That sort is a misogynistic, sexist, patronising event, which I want nothing to do with.

To me, a Ladies' Night has always been something like all the women in a friendship group/class/department going out to socialise together, without the men. Without the men, however well we got on with them, no matter whether they were our good friends or even partners.

A different environment altogether

Pinkyxx · 29/12/2021 23:19

Men who identify as women (aka 'Trans women') are men. Biologically this is an irrefutable fact. A trans woman's needs therefore cannot be said to be the same as that of a biological woman. TW therefore need to find ways to meet their own needs, whether it is creating their own spaces or engaging with their own sex to promote better acceptance / safety.

I can't say what is right for them as I'm a woman. I'm also a rape survivor and I will not compromise my safety or dignity for any man. Surrendering female single sex spaces for the benefit of men, or endorsing the notion that a man who identifies as a women is a woman will not solve TW problems - all it is doing is creating new problems.

Shedmistress · 29/12/2021 22:44

And as shed has so helpfully and insistently highlighted, the Ladies at a Ladies Night do not go there with the expectation of there being no males present, quite the opposite...If you want to argue, as shed I think is, that Ladies Night itself is a bad thing that should not happen that is a different and valid point, but to defend this thing in particular as a female-only activity seems an odd hill to die on, if not actually counterproductive in forcing a gender stereotype right back onto the female body.

No, my response was based around your comment about free drinks for ladies in a nightclub. Not about specific female only groups or events.

foxgoosefinch · 29/12/2021 22:33

Except a lot of what trans people say about rejecting their birth sex is half about gender and half about sex - eg. being uncomfortable in their sexed body, having “gender dysphoria” about the body, and so on. So is it really discomfort with sex roles, or is it about sexed bodies? Is body dysphoria “gender” dysphoria or sex dysphoria? It all gets mixed up together in the gender ideology narrative, so I don’t think it’s remotely as simple as just rejecting the patriarchal constructs of gender.

Original poster

Blibbyblobby · 29/12/2021 22:32

@JellySaurus

You misunderstand. Of course it doesn’t signal that, because we don’t have that concept at all right now. What I was saying is (with the obvious exceptions of ladies toilets and changing rooms, although both less common uses than they were), “ladies” is often attached to gender/social stuff rather than laws and rights. Which isn’t surprising since it’s quite an old fashioned term now.

A Ladies' Night is still an opportunity to enjoy the company of other women without having overbearing men dictating the course of the conversation or of the evening. Women are allowed to convene in groups without men interfering. There is absolutely no reason to give this up. If males with lady-feelz are allowed in, that changes the dynamic and excludes some women. If males with lady-feelz are allowed in to any women's/ladies'/girls' sex-segregated activity how can you justify other males being excluded from it?

Am I suggesting no woman(female)-only groups ever? No. I’m suggesting as an example one particular, highly gendered social convention that might be appropriate as suitable for a gender-based group of “women” rather than sex segregation.

And as shed has so helpfully and insistently highlighted, the Ladies at a Ladies Night do not go there with the expectation of there being no males present, quite the opposite.

If you want to argue, as shed I think is, that Ladies Night itself is a bad thing that should not happen that is a different and valid point, but to defend this thing in particular as a female-only activity seems an odd hill to die on, if not actually counterproductive in forcing a gender stereotype right back onto the female body.

OP posts:

bordermidgebite · 29/12/2021 22:25

I think I can have sone idea of what is happening for younger F2M people

if you are always told you are wierd then you internalise that -it's your fault , something is wrong with you-girls reject you as not one of them so you must be a boy

It takes something else for you to realise that there isn't actually anything wrong with you , that it's the nasty girls who are wrong
Especially as a child where fitting in with your peer group is so important

Original poster

Blibbyblobby · 29/12/2021 22:19

@Shedmistress

Trans identities, being at heart a rejection of the dominant gender/sex constructions

Trans identities exist because they completely obey the gender/sex constructions. So if you like girlie things that lots of members of the female sex like, it must mean you are really a girl.

Ladies nights exist because men want cheap sex with drunk women. Not because they are super generous towards people in skirts.

Trans identities exist because they completely obey the gender/sex constructions. So if you like girlie things that lots of members of the female sex like, it must mean you are really a girl.

Trans identitifying people reject the gender constructs attached to their birth sex. That’s the fundamental driver. IMO the (mis) identification with the opposite sex comes after.

So while I agree that the “really a girl” thing is very much a sex/gender construct, it’s the first part I am really interested in.

The way I see it (and this is why I really wish there was open communication, so I could learn more) is that first thing, the “I don’t match the type of person that society tells me my sex should be” feeling is real. That’s based entirely on their own knowledge of themself.

The second thing “I feel like what I believe the other sex feels like, I must be the other sex” is where it goes awry because it’s built on an assumption/belief about the opposite sex rather than actual knowledge of what it is to be the opposite sex.

So, what I think is going on for many trans identifying people is an entirely rational recognition that their own gender role under patriarchy doesn’t fit, but instead of leading to a recognition that sex/gender personality constructs are in fact bollocks, it’s being incorrectly diverted into a belief that one is actually the opposite gender, or a mix of genders, or something, based on assumptions about what others feel and experience.

Plus on top of that, a big chunk of original gender socialisation that gets carried with you into the “new” gender identity.

Not that I’m suggesting any of this is consciously thought. But that’s why I say the driver for trans identities is a rejection of sex stereotypes even if the result is actually to enforce them.

OP posts:

Datun · 29/12/2021 22:08

Trans identities, being at heart a rejection of the dominant gender/sex constructions, have the potential to destabilise it and if you read past the angry males on twitter to the confused ones, that’s what they are really crying out for.

Of course, your old-fashioned transsexuals might be a victim of patriarchy, in that effeminate men were treated to rampant homophobia and bullying. But identifying as women is playing straight into the gender roles.

I'm effeminate, therefore I must be a woman.

Its cementing patriarchal stereotypes.

And as for AGP men. It's the same but it goes further and fetishises them.

None of this dismantles patriarchy.

RepentMotherfucker · 29/12/2021 21:57

If you think this thread isPART OF THATthen you are not listening. It is not about “what can we give up to appease oppressors?” I explained that very early on. It’s about what do I expect from trans women (because I was asked) and why I think what I expect will help us move forward.

Honestly?

I think you're a bit out of your depth here.

And I think you started this thread and made a couple of offhand comments about 'ladies nights' and it didn't go your way and now you're doubling down and really I would stop digging. Feminists do not want the debate you are suggesting. Neither do TW from what I can see. And it would only work against us anyway for all the very good reasons people have been posting for the last three pages.

I don't want ANYTHING from TW. I have absolutely no desire to participate in any discussion about trans issues. Except where they threaten women's rights and there is absolutely no debate about that, it simply cannot be allowed to happen.