What do you expect transwomen to do then?

"Do you know much about people? They don’t always behave well, or rationally, or in their own best interests. No, I’m not new. Yes, I read the angry voices on Twitter, and the confused ones, and the scared ones, and the scary ones.

What I see is people who are trapped by rigid gender beliefs. Misogyny is just another side of the same coin. It’s all the same screwed up ideas about gender."

Yes I know plenty about people I have been having to deal with them for decades.

their rigid gender belief is their own problem for adhering to an outdated ideology that was created in the 1940s by a man who caused the suicide of two men, an ideology that reinforces the sexist patriarchy by pigeonholing, its the same ideology that declares the gay must be feminine and the lesbian butch, little girls and boys must not stray from their roles.

go read the DSM5 criteria for gender dysphoria, every girl born in the 1970s or 80s would be classed as "in the wrong body" and Porn culture hasn't even been taken into account at all. no wonder the kids are angry, frightened and confused.

they adhering to a confused new belief system that states sex doesn't matter only gender does and gender is decided by a fixed range of sexist stereotypes based on Victorian sex roles , then they are constantly conflating sex with gender, using the two interchangeably to cause themselves even more confusion and claiming someone assigns your sex at birth, they are constantly whipped up into a state of eternal victimhood and persecution by the very nature of their beliefs, that pigeonhole them far more strictly then sex ever has, or sexuality. as both sex and sexuality are a case of "I am born/attracted to therefor I am", where as transgender is a case of "I behave as, therefore I must be"......unless they are NB then it is "I dont behave as, therefore I cant be".

the whole thing is an exercise in repression.

We are only allowed to discuss this issue here, this one specific fora. The one it refers to was not about trans issues or women's rights.

So don't blame us for it being here. Most regular posters would love to be able to discuss this in Chat or AIBU. But Those Who Monitor report any thread in the 'wrong' place and it gets moved here.

Placed mark

Bah posted comment on that thread and full!

Was for blibby. >

'I read your points and views on a different thread.

Yes an open good faith debate, or not a debate. That's still 'sides'. A genuine discussion with open mind and try to come to some accord or at least dial back the polarity etc.

Would have been good, years ago.

Before various laws policies etc got quietly changed around eg hosp wards, prisons etc. And not till years later did the changes even get realised by those not directly involved...

It's not women who know sex is fundamentally important esp to women/girls in so many massive ways that don't want to discuss. It really isn't.

Sadly it's too late. We've tried and been vilified, reported to police, threatened, denounced, accused of being a bizarre assortment of extreme political positions (many of which are totally unrelated/ condictory).

Take your point grub other thread about gender/ sex role and how people can feel they don't fit.

Try it on discussion boards etc popular with vocal gender> sex individuals/ orgs.

You will get called every name under the sun. You will get told that being GNC is not the same as being trans. That to suggest this is transphobic. That gender ID is unrelated to stereotypes, appearance, roles etc. And you will get a clobbering, despite the fact that plenty of tags orgs/ resources STATE that being GNC IS v linked to being trans.'

Thanks Ereshkigal. 👍

The now full thread being referred to

Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much? http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4437185-why-does-wokeness-annoy-people-so-much

It was AIBU

HoardingSamphireSaurus

RepentMotherfucker

And also trying to start this discussion in FWR makes it absolutely clear who the concessions are expected to come from. This is not the 'Talking about what trans people need' topic.

The title came, I thought, from another thread. A thread that had at least 2 TRA type posters. This was an invitation to them to come and talk specifically about one question that was raised.

Somewhat predictablyJohnhas not bothered.

That thread was in Chat though no? So why has the invitation to continue the discussion migrated here? Take it to TRA twitter.

There is nothing to be gained for women and girls and everything to be lost by seeing this as a "joint struggle" , it's not it's male supremacy and colonisation imo.

Indeed. And we know this because the answer to the question 'what's in it for women?' is 'nothing'. Nothing except problems.

But blibby.

What I said has been said a million times. And the response is invariably, being GNC is not the same as being trans at all.

... Even though some trans orgs include being GNC in their trans umbrella.

There's no point. What you're doing. Been there done that over and over and over.

Also because there is no agreed actual definition of anything. It's up to trans individuals to decide what it is about for them personally.

That's where this woman is formless type stuff comes in.

There is no consensus whatsoever that knowing your gender identity is woman has anything to do with gender roles. At all.

And after all. If it was to do with GNC, that means there are hardly any 'cis' women in existence to be oppressed by.

@RepentMotherfucker

And also trying to start this discussion in FWR makes it absolutely clear who the concessions are expected to come from. This is not the 'Talking about what trans people need' topic.

Somewhat predictably John has not bothered.

Let the TWAW sink itself.

Maybe that's what it would take to make the whole gender thing collapse. Throw it back to the men to deal with.

I really think you are allowing the wool to be pulled over your eyes here. The trans ideology is "I don't feel like societies definition of a man, therefore I must be a woman". It's not "I don't feel like societies definition of a man". That does not a transperson make. Therefore you can't just focus on the first part of the statement and use that as an argument for common ground. To do so actually implies acceptance of the second part of the statement - and it is that which is literally killing women. So no, I will not see this as any sort of joint struggle. I will continue to see this as an abuse of power.

Agree.

There is nothing to be gained for women and girls and everything to be lost by seeing this as a "joint struggle" , it's not it's male supremacy and colonisation imo.

I don't feel like societies definition of a man, therefore I must be a woman". It's not "I don't feel like societies definition of a man". That does not a transperson make.

Exactly. It's sexist claptrap.

Free drinks for women on "ladies' night" belongs in the bin along with convincing men that having feelings makes them women.

Free drinks on ladies night.

What reason could any profit driven business have for handing out free drinks restricted to women? Corporate facilitated access to women with reduced capacity for consent to paying predatory men.

Let’s bin that horror forever.

And also trying to start this discussion in FWR makes it absolutely clear who the concessions are expected to come from. This is not the 'Talking about what trans people need' topic.

But as Flo says, questions were interpreted as bigotry. Civil debate has never been possible because among some very vocal, very aggressive activists, there has never been any intention to listen to women. Just shock that we didn't immediately acquiesce and that shock morphed into painting women as evil for not immediately saying 'yes, of course!'

There's much talk of a 'golden bridge' but at this point, I agree with the point which Arabella made up thread - it's now up to the TQI+ community to negotiate what additional services they need, fight and fundraise for them (the same way that women had to do) and drop this colonisation of single sex spaces. It doesn't work.

*Trans identitifying people reject the gender constructs attached to their birth sex. That’s the fundamental driver. IMO the (mis) identification with the opposite sex comes after.

So while I agree that the “really a girl” thing is very much a sex/gender construct, it’s the first part I am really interested in.*

I really think you are allowing the wool to be pulled over your eyes here. The trans ideology is "I don't feel like societies definition of a man, therefore I must be a woman". It's not "I don't feel like societies definition of a man". That does not a transperson make. Therefore you can't just focus on the first part of the statement and use that as an argument for common ground. To do so actually implies acceptance of the second part of the statement - and it is that which is literally killing women. So no, I will not see this as any sort of joint struggle. I will continue to see this as an abuse of power.

The discussion earlier on this thread about nightclubs giving free drinks for women on "ladies' night" makes me wonder if this practice is still common, as I'm sure it's against the Equality Act, and I think it's specifically mentioned in guidance as such.

If it does still happen, has anyone complained? Has any action been taken against establishments that do this?

I understand exactly where you are coming from by saying “not my problem” and in a black and white world you’d be right,
I know you said you were leaving the thread but, in case you're still reading, I see it the other way round. I think that in a black and white world there might well be a chance of reaching solutions because in such a world, it might be possible for us to state our boundaries and to say 'no' and to have that respected.
Instead our politeness and reticence have been construed as acceptance, and our questions and challenges dismissed as bigotry.
As long as that continues - and I don't think it's within our gift to change it - then I no longer think good faith discussion is possible.

If you assume the narrative is in part shaped by autogynephiles the confusion makes sense. There’s physiologic/ body-focused AGP and AGP that is more focused on social interactions and being treated like a woman. I forget all the different types, but considering that as well as different types of AGP all kinds of other motivations/etiologies for gender dysphoria are lumped under “trans”, the incoherent narrative is only to be expected.

This, exactly.

Just as speaking fluent French does not make you French. You are never native.

To continue the analogy, many of them speak French about as well as Del Boy. Mange tout.

If you assume the narrative is in part shaped by autogynephiles the confusion makes sense.

And that, of course. AGP fetishises women's gender roles. It doesn't just inhabit them, it takes it to another level.

It absolutely needs, one hundred percent, for them to remain. Hence the unbridled fury at feminists.