Kellie Jay on Talk Radio with James Max

Cross post, Hadrosaurus! Our minds are working in sync!

Really interesting analysis. It made me think of Piers Morgan criticising Daniel Craig for wearing a papoose to carry his baby. He’s starred in the most masculine franchise and yet it seemed to be invalidated by this according to Morgan. Although Morgan does speak up on women’s safety and sports, I don’t know what he thinks of the concept of transgender altogether.

@Packingsoapandwater I don't know enough about the theories to comment with real knowledge but I agree - I have often thought that for some men, ANY hint of 'femininity' in a bloke is a problem. Furthering that idea to 'you can't be a man!' and not seeing them as one is intriguing. (And in both scenarios, hence 'girl' being used as an insult? But in the furthering, really meaning they are a girl?)

And there is something to unpick here, something about masculinity depending on abstract thought and behaviour performance in the modern Western world, rather than, say, fatherhood, as it is in my DH's culture, or producing useful goods as it was in generations past -- or even just having a penis.

That's really interesting, Packingsoap. You may well be right.

Why do men then in particular do the soft voice, the soapy sympathy for males who identify as trans where they've demonstrated precious little exists for women?

I'm reminded of David Aaronovitch perceptive lines in his review of Helen Joyce's Trans - where, let's face it, the only criticism he could muster was that her tone was 'angry'...

"Having semiconsciously harboured for many years the natal male’s fear of castration (and doesn’t this subject quickly become personal?) I realised I had been one of those closet “transphobes” repulsed by the thought of sex-change and so was newly anxious at the very least to be sympathetic to the cause."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4298023-David-Aaronovitch-Review-of-Helen-Joyces-Book?pg=1

I wonder if at a fundamental, subconscious psychological level, this 'castration anxiety' is why men like James Max and O'Brien overcompensate. Possibly it's why some of the most virulent TRAs are gay men. Yes, they may have an unacknowledged streak of misogyny a mile wide. But, the idea that you would want something so badly that you would cut your penis off, to literally un-man yourself - means absolutely that you join all the rest of the un-men in the world.

What is not so well known is that the vast, vast majority of males who transition (90-95%) keep their penis.

"Genital GCS is generally less common than chest surgery, with prevalence rates of about 25–50% for transgender men and 5–10% for transgender women (7,9,32). For transgender women, genital GCS comprises a number of procedures, including vaginoplasty (most commonly intestinal or penile inversion) with labiaplasty and/or clitoroplasty, penectomy, and orchiectomy. Transgender women report bottom surgery at rates between 5–13% (7-9,32). Even more transgender women desire bottom surgery in the future: between 45–54% (7,9). Among non-binary people assigned male at birth, 1% have had vaginoplasty or labiaplasty, and 11% desire these in the future (7)."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314/

You can relax, guys.

But it's why we, as women, can't...

[quote LightningJenny]This is great. [/quote]
That was wonderful. I think I enjoyed Clive's takedown as much as the interview.

This is actually about certain men's investment in modern gender tropes about "blue brains", that they believe they are MEN because of their super masculine minds, rather than their bodies.

And there is something to unpick here, something about masculinity depending on abstract thought and behaviour performance in the modern Western world, rather than, say, fatherhood, as it is in my DH's culture, or producing useful goods as it was in generations past -- or even just having a penis.

Because it is quite clear that these men do not believe the mere instance of having a penis and being over 18 actually makes you a man. No, you have to have a blue brain too, and not just a blue brain, probably a navy one or maybe even .... midnight indigo.

It is the Gordon Gekko-isation of masculinity where your attitude of "dog eat dog" and "I'm fucking right" is what makes you really a man and all those other blokes who do stuff like build houses and design valves and formulate vaccines and look after premature babies as paediatricians are all a bit suspect if they don't perform "competition" or participate in a ridiculous charade of "Who is the cock of the walk?"

For those are signs of the dark blue brain.

Max is so performing "dark blue brain" in that interview with KJK. Notice how he tinges his questions with those sneaky, slightly sarcastic scoffs -- that's to signal he's gone a bit midnight indigo.

And this is why they cannot cope with the gender critical thought because if to be a proper man, you must have a dark blue brain, then people with penises whose brains are not sufficiently blue cannot therefore be sufficiently male. Therefore, they must be more female: ergo, they must have women's brains in a receptacle with a penis.

The problem here is that confronting these beliefs, because they've built a structure of meaning for themselves as men upon them, is very difficult. They can't let it through because the danger is it will collapse their entire psyche.

I think men in general view women as inferior. They cannot comprehend that any man would lower himself to be such a thing unless he really believes.

Also I still find it hard to see someone male imitating a woman and being expected to be OK with that on a serious level. I would rather someone like DH could just be a man who likes feminine outfits/looks and there was no “she” or “trans” about it, because it still feel like it requires a level of compromising my own woman-ness to go along with that.

Well yes, quite. But that's AGP. It's a paraphilia where presenting as a woman is the turn on.

Being a man dressed in feminine outfits isn't a paraphilia.

Also I still find it hard to see someone male imitating a woman and being expected to be OK with that on a serious level. I would rather someone like DH could just be a man who likes feminine outfits/looks and there was no “she” or “trans” about it, because it still feel like it requires a level of compromising my own woman-ness to go along with that.

This.

Women shouldn't have to indulge their AGP fantasies.

Re Debbie Hayton, I do appreciate that there are people who will say it like it is, be clear that TW are male, and stand up for women’s rights to a separate category and spaces. I do think that’s important and it takes courage too. But it’s double-edged for me because exactly as has been shown here, Debbie is treated with respect as a male in the debate, when women aren’t and it’s so frustrating.

Also I still find it hard to see someone male imitating a woman and being expected to be OK with that on a serious level. I would rather someone like DH could just be a man who likes feminine outfits/looks and there was no “she” or “trans” about it, because it still feel like it requires a level of compromising my own woman-ness to go along with that.

It seems as though these individuals believe on some level that two qualities denote type: biological sex and "brain expression" with "brain expression" being the most important in terms of civic society.

I would suggest that these men know perfectly well that there are only two sexes, but that their response to a man rejecting the stereotypes of the male sex and/or embracing stereotypes of the female sex is fundamentally different to the feminist response.

Our response is to accept that this is a man who rejects stereotypes. Their response is that if he has rejected masculinity, there is only one other thing that he can be. 🐰🎩 A man has turned into a woman.

Packing I think that’s so true, especially among a lot of older and more successful men (though plenty of others too). They think a woman could not possibly match them and their success is down to their superior male brain power and not sexism or misogyny at all.

You post reminds me of something else I’ve noticed in both real life and celebs, politicians etc, which is that successful, or (perceived/self-perceived) as highly intelligent, men will often choose a female partner who is much less intellectual, or appears to them to be, or has a less intellectual job, and who they consider less intelligent than them (though of course she may not be at all). I suspect this is because it confirms their view of “lady brains” and any woman they encounter who is overtly intelligent or can match them at what they do can be written off as unladylike, unattractive and somehow malfunctioning.

And of course there are loads of TW who seem to think the “ditsy girlie, oops I’m dim but cute and sexy” trope is being a woman.

What's hilarious though is that none of these prominent trans women behave in a way that is characteristic of women.

Well quite. It wouldn't matter so much if these men actually acted in a way that is perceived by some as innately female. Kind, empathetic, considerate, taking second place.

Oh, if any of them were treated, in the slightest bit like women. Overlooked, ignored, relegated.

It really has been the biggest eye-opener, in terms of male privilege and quite how hopelessly blind it is.

So therefore, transgenderism fits perfectly with this existing belief. Said transwoman declares pink brain status, therefore sad transwoman must be an actual woman.

I'm not entirely averse to the idea that men and women are psychologically different in some respects, though there's definitely an argument to be had about whether those are innate or learned.

What's hilarious though is that none of these prominent trans women behave in a way that is characteristic of women. They behave like men: they are loud, they are aggressive, they talk over women, they think their opinion is more important than that of a woman. Look at India Willoughby - a prime example.

I think people like Max have some sort of fundamental prior investment in the concept of women having different brains to men. And it's that investment that causes them to react so weirdly to challenges to gender theory.

I've noticed this with other men that support gender theory. There's some sort of innate belief that women are acutely different psychologically and mentally to men, that they really do have "pink" brains.

So therefore, transgenderism fits perfectly with this existing belief. Said transwoman declares pink brain status, therefore sad transwoman must be an actual woman.

It seems as though these individuals believe on some level that two qualities denote type: biological sex and "brain expression" with "brain expression" being the most important in terms of civic society.

Now I would argue "pink brain" beliefs are an acutely misogynistic sphere of reference, but asking why these men have these beliefs will probably get us closer to uncovering the murk that exists in their heads about the opposite sex.

Thanks for link

This is great.

Ulrika was superb, she did get a lot across in her call. The presenter just sounds more and more obnoxious the more he says. "Everyone under 35 will disagree with you" apparently Ulrika.

His conclusion: (paraphrased a bit)

"I DON'T agree with KJKM , and I've read JKR's essay I DON'T agree with all of it, and I've read what the Harry potter actors have all had to say. We just have different views, but I'm glad to be providing a platform for people to air their views even though I don't like your views"

Haaa! What do you want a special Scouts badge or something?

His arguments are so embarrassingly bad, but he gives them steeped in the authority that can only come from male privilege, i dont think he feels the need to question himself at all. He can pontificate all he likes, becuase he is a man. No woman would even remotely get away with this.

Spot on.

Alan Partridge without the parody.

I wish James Max would go back and listen to himself talking to Kellie and Ulrika and then listen to himself talking to Debbie Hayton.

If he thinks he's treating all these people as women, he is very much mistaken.

I loved Ulrika. Clearly absolutely distraught over what's happening to women, and yet doesn't waver once from her commenting.

I mean, she couldn't be clearer, could she? If any man could be a woman, the entire meaning of a woman disappears. And he hears those words, and still thinks that it's just a viewpoint.

In fact one of the things he says when she says it's gaslighting, is it's not gaslighting 'it's a difference of fact'.

(25 mins in to the 930 slot).

Facts are so passé.