Kellie Jay on Talk Radio with James Max

Nice analysis from Maria
McLauglin here:

I kept my 'James Max' search timeline open (and 'Ulrika', for a while) and I'm intrigued at how few trans activists are in there.

Is there because all the debate went on somewhere else, or did they just not show up? It seems to be a handful of very repetitive people who waded in.

Kellie Jay was so brilliant that it's got a few other people talking about her interview and the subsequent Hayton interview.

They make the very good point that the 'experts' James Max quotes are mediocre actors who only became famous because of JKR.

“What an odd thing to say. How on earth is Debbie Hayton 'not trans'? What is it that makes Robin 'trans' and Debbie 'not trans'?”

I am guessing that it is because Debbie doesn’t subscribe to the orthodox gender identity dogma. So I conclude that from RMW’s perspective Debbie is not a true believer, which in turn confirms that that transness is about what you believe in the eyes of proponents of orthodox gender identity theory. Apostates and heretics are rejected regardless of surgery or presentation.

Or perhaps RMW believes that a GRC is crucial for trans status, which belief surely is itself a heresy against orthodox gender identity dogma.

Maybe menopause has a protective effect against gender issues.

Yep, you’re half way to “living as a man” with all the new chin hair and shedding of agreeableness without any intervention.

Yes, the absence, near total absence, of female people transitioning in their 50s is stark.

Maybe menopause has a protective effect against gender issues.

It's one of the blindingly obvious sex based aspects of the entire thing.

How many middle-aged women with a family behind them, transition? One? Four?

And, in any event, who even bloody cares whether or not women are 'genuine trans'? There's not a transwoman out there who even questions it.

Funny that. 🙄

Sorry @lovely, I meant they live as a trans woman living as a woman. Apologies. I live as a woman because I’m born one, I know my caste, my bastard teeth are dropping out because when I gestated my child he sucked the calcium out of me. My mother in law has osteoporosis because her body fed her babies first. I don’t think any of them want that part of being a woman.

but why isn’t Debbie who lives as a woman trans?

What does it mean to "live as a woman"?

I think it's anyone is trans who says they are, unless they say it's because it turns them on. Then they're sooo not trans.

Good point, thanks, Datun.

Interestingly, I can't think of a single squabble along these lines between trans men. Buck Angel gets abused on twitter for stating their sex, but not accused of not being the right sort of trans. I can't think of any TM or NB female people who talk about transitioning in fetishistic terms.

Am I missing something?

What an odd thing to say. How on earth is Debbie Hayton 'not trans'? What is it that makes Robin 'trans' and Debbie 'not trans'?

Spite and an attempt to other Debbie for not falling in to the TRA group think.

Is it the same as the rapist in the kids school in America? They don’t want those trans?or is it old fashioned jealousy that Debbie gets so much more media attention and is taken much more seriously than India and Robin?

Do you know I could absolutely cry. If I am transphobic and a bigot because I don’t believe a man is a woman but actual trans people in the public eye can attack Debbie in that way. What chance have we got? I know people find Debbie divisive for many many reasons but they are a human being with thoughts and feelings and they have a mind that questions and takes on board unpalatable (for them) truths. Harms have been done but why isn’t Debbie who lives as a woman trans? I know why and so do all of you they aren’t the right kind of trans, it’s like the Scientologist turning on one who questions.

What an odd thing to say. How on earth is Debbie Hayton 'not trans'? What is it that makes Robin 'trans' and Debbie 'not trans'?

Irregular verb theory. E.g., "I have considered opinions; you are prejudiced; he/she is a raging bigot."

It appears that RMW believes RMW's self to have secular version of papal bull of infallibility on all trans matters alongside the No True Scotsman fallacy.

It is an exercise for others to fill out the various verb forms and other useful declensions here.

Welcome back Ulrike you were brilliant. Thank you for saying it better than I ever could

I also think there are some commonly accepted ideas about sex in our society that are rarely if ever questioned that tend to lead to the development of these problems, perhaps to the point where it's not possible to just undo them. People are told that it is ok and fine to indulge their fantasy life and very few people are told that it could lead to real problems. So it's not like most people are looking out for that or even have good strategies for coping with problematic fantasies.

But I think your point about indulging the paraphilia is what I am objecting to. That consists of imagining oneself as a woman in terms of sexual situations. So, very much a sexual act.

But according to Blanchard's research with affected men, what happens is that indulging this leads to a second, more debilitating problem, which is a kind of alienation from the person's own sexed body leading to sex dysphoria, that starts to assert itself outside just those sexual contexts. So whereas gay men who are unable to deal with their homosexuality develop this break due to not being able to integrate their sexed body with their sexuality, AGP men develop a similar break because of the effect of the paraphilia over time.

He suggests transition as a way to increase normal functioning for both types of people by alleviating the generalized dysphoria. Not as a way of being sexual in the public sphere.

Is he wrong about what's going on? It seems to me that with the rise of trans activism and letting down all boundaries there is a significant number now who are in fact publicly behaving fetishistically, basically whenever you see these men dressed in wholly inappropriate sexualized women's clothes in public, that's what's going on.

But I don't think that means that what he described as the mechanism in AGP is mistaken overall.

Over 1 million views of KJK's interview.

Agree - Ulrike you were brilliant. Thank you.

Thank you Ulrike, you were amazing.

Ulrike you were fabulous! You were calm, focused and total undistracted by the waffle and outrage of the interviewer. I have also read your Twitter follow up but as I'm not on Twitter I couldn't comment there but thank you.

Welcome back to MN!!! Hope you do stay!

Ulrike, you were brilliant. Thank you