Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

And then confidently declares that their trans status has no impact on their competitiveness.

Well they are right there. They win because they are male. Being trans didn't make them swim any faster than any other male.

The only difference that being trans makes is the fact that they were permitted to cheat enter the wrong category in the first place.

Id be happy to use pronouns you wanted and refer to you as a trans woman. The pronoun side of things I would join in with in the same way I hold hands while religious friends say grace: to be polite and respectful. There's a line though. I wouldnt say grace myself and I wouldn't like it if using preferred pronouns were taken to mean I actually believed you were a woman. I would be making a concession to allow for your strongly held belief. The only reason to be anti-pronoun is if it assumed to mean we are converted, rather than polite. It's a white lie vs the feeling of false testimony.

And also, I don't see "thread after thread' on here of people refusing to use trans people's pronouns, most people feel forced to in RL, even though they think it's BS. The debate I see about pronoun usage is about people refusing to state their (obvious) pronouns for themself and feeling aggrieved at people attempting to force them to, mainly in the workplace, when they think it's BS and it reflects a belief system they don't subscribe to and, I might add, is harmful to professional women.

I think pronouns are bullshit, I think sex is immutable and I don't believe TWAW or could ever be. But in RL I would call a trans woman she, out of courtesy, and do,.all the time, about the trans women I know in RL.

Discussing what you really think on a message board is not the same as being courteous in RL as a kindness or a convention. And the only downright rudeness I see comes from the TRAs, on twitter, telling everyon to stfu, die, get raped etc.

You are being disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

@Ereshkigalangcleg I would know a trans woman at twenty paces.

It may be that we share spaces with transwoman without realising - we usually focus on what we're doing ourselves in bathrooms and changing rooms to poke our nose into anyone else.
And many transwomen don't stand out, and wouldn't want to.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for our single sex spaces, does it? Otherwise it gives a signal to some transwomen and men who are wishing to exploit that open opportunity to exhibit, abuse and harass women and girls when they're in a vulnerable position - in a hospital ward, changing room, spa, sauna, refuge.

Many transwomen wouldn't dream of taking advantage and want to get on with their lives, unassuming and quietly, but some, and many men, would relish being able to take advantage, as is regularly demonstrated.

The law is comprehensive against harassment, bullying, hate crime, plus we have same s x marriage and the GRC.

Pushing pushing pushing only elicits a pushback force if equal measure, does not consider the pitfalls, and does not win hearts and minds & support. That needs to happen if the bulk of society is to learn to treat all types of people with courtesy and respect. Respect has to be earned, and the TRAs are in danger of increasing prejudice, while they try to bully everyone into submission.

I should clarify I don't agree with EVERYTHING this guy stands for, but on this issue, I surely do.

I am not GC myself but have two GC friends who regularly miss-gender trans people deliberately, so it definitely happens. And it happens online all. the. time.
OP - it is not ok, it shouldn't happen and I'm so sorry you even have to post this. I point this disrespect out to my friends regularly.
Sending you much love and support - woman to woman x

Yeah here’s your screenshot. I’ll admit it, I won’t use ‘she’ or ‘her’ for a biological male because it’s inaccurate and it’s compelled speech. I also refuse to call women who claim to have male identities ‘he’ or ‘him’. And I refuse to use plural pronouns for individuals. Sorry, not sorry.

Common courtesy works both ways, op. Don’t try to police my language. You don’t get to describe my reality.

I know I posted a Ben Shapiro video recently too, but here is another one. I'm just discovering this guy on YouTube and working my way through his videos. There's a LOT I agree with.
This explains my feelings perfectly OP (if you ever come back!).
I would be polite to you as I would to anyone I encounter, but I will not be made to indulge in someone else's belief.

With toilets I’d like to point out that if I see a male in the ladies, I know that he has already been arrogant enough to have stepped over the threshold, it’s antagonistic, he’s already purposefully broken a barrier. I don’t start fights with with antagonistic people, no woman would in an enclosed space with a man. Our silence is not acceptance.

YY, perfectly put.

As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing

"Without noticing" I often wonder if people like you know exactly what you are supporting when you repeat the tired old mantra that "trans women are women", because it literally does mean accepting any male at all into a female space if he declares himself to feel womanly.

When a man walks in, the atmosphere changes completely. Guards go up. Conversation changes. Unfortunately this doesn’t change when the man identifies as a woman. Again it’s unfair to vilify women for needing these spaces.

Yes - why exactly is it so terrible to want a space or group for biological women only? Plenty of groups are for a particular category of person, including trans groups.

I’m being asked to give up women-only places, groups and experiences on the basis of a lie - that a male is a woman. Not only is that not true, it actually actively ruins the vibe of a female only group because as a male that person doesn’t have the biological experiences that the women share and understand.

And it’s not just that the male/a in the group change it - it also means in the current climate you can’t talk about those women-only things for fear of upsetting or causing the rage of the male who doesn’t share them, because then you’re “excluding`’ the non-female “woman” and now it’s all about them feeling important and feminine so we can’t discuss menstruation or boobs or sex and have a funny female time bonding over what we share.

It’s completely barking and yet this is why we’re having that important female experience taken away.

And like PP I also understand men wanting to have their male only bonding. Why shouldn’t they?

Also, I wonder if the OP realises that this is just the latest in a long, long line of identical threads posted by transwomen.

Its striking how similar they are isn't it?

@xxyzz amen!

Haven't RTT but surely the reason for the issue is that no-one has a problem with you per se, OP. But the issue isn't with you, it's nothing personal, it's to do with classes or categories in law.

If we accept that you as a TW are a woman, that doesn't just impact you. That changes the definition of the entire category of women - as suddenly now it can include people born male, with a penis etc. That has HUGE REPERCUSSIONS for the definition of women in law and our legal rights.

So I get that on a personal level, it seems reasonable to say 'Why can't you just be nice to me, I'm not harming anyone.'

The problem is that although you absolutely don't mean to hurt anyone, you could be inadvertently hurting women by contributing to a redefinition of our legal category. Which is what provides (some measure of) protection to all women.

When a man walks in, the atmosphere changes completely. Guards go up. Conversation changes. Unfortunately this doesn’t change when the man identifies as a woman. Again it’s unfair to vilify women for needing these spaces.

This is so true. And, to be fair I think the reverse is too. I’ve felt that unease in the air when I’ve found myself joining a group of men - unease for the men that is. And I admit I can’t help thinking on occasions that it’s because they are having some sexist/perverted conversation that they realise is not acceptable in front of a woman.

Is there a shared trans experience of living?

Given that trans is such an umbrella term for so many things is it even possible to have a shared experience of trans?

OP never came back.
Trans can't have a 'lived experience' of being a woman, because they haven't lived as a woman. What is a woman? What do you think growing up as a woman entails? I've yet to see a good description on MN. If you had problems growing up, struggled with periods, bled and had blood all over the bed, worried about getting home or walking home from a party, pregnancy, menopause and HRT. Or if not those parts, other women would describe bits of being a woman that a person born a man could not comprehend.

So women are silenced out of fear, in the first instance, and silenced again out of a more subtle fear - that of being seen as rude/non-compliant/nasty. This is something most women understand very well. It's the shame that gets you and keeps you quiet.

And presumably that's exactly what the screenshots are designed to do too. Punishment for non-compliance.

I think it should be OK to discuss why women might be uncomfortable referring to a transwoman as "she" or "her".

Funnily enough the "lived experience" of being trans must be respected and believed at all times but the " "lived experience" of being in a sexed body, well it's just fine to appropriate that and claim the rights accorded because of it.
Well said!

Also I think talking about "lived experience" is a bit bloody rich if you are prepared to insist that you are a woman when you have zero "lived experience" of what women's lives are like. Funnily enough the "lived experience" of being trans must be respected and believed at all times but the " "lived experience" of being in a sexed body, well it's just fine to appropriate that and claim the rights accorded because of it.

With toilets I’d like to point out that if I see a male in the ladies, I know that he has already been arrogant enough to have stepped over the threshold, it’s antagonistic, he’s already purposefully broken a barrier. I don’t start fights with with antagonistic people, no woman would in an enclosed space with a man. Our silence is not acceptance.