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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

544 replies

WhiteFlagHeldAloft · 24/12/2021 16:16

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

OP posts:
Interrobanger · 27/12/2021 10:25

When women collide with bending reality to suit the lie transpeople tell themselves, it actively hurts women. It makes women complicit in the erasure of all the objective definitions of what it means to be a woman. And it makes us complicit in the erosion of any rights or remedies afforded to us because of those definitions.

So I won’t do it.

It sounds like you’ve been through a lot and I’m sorry for your struggles but you say I hate everything about how I was born - this, IMO is the thing that needs further addressing, not your trauma response to it.

motheroffour824 · 27/12/2021 10:23

ArabellaScott you make an extremely good point, it's something we as a society need to work on in the same way we need to look at other largely male crimes.

HaroldMeeker · 27/12/2021 10:22

Comprehension isn't your strong point. If you're not trans, you don't get to decide what you call yourself. If you're female, the noo roolz state you are referred to as a menstruation, a uterus owner, a birthing parent, a bleeder. You're subhuman. Didn't you know?

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 10:22

@motheroffour824

If you're not 'genuinely' scared that this ideology's political agenda fights for things like giving rapists access to incarcerated women are part of their sentence, then you're either callous behind belief or haven't been paying attention.

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

What is the difference? And how can we tell?
Artichokeleaves · 27/12/2021 10:21

But I respect pronouns either way, because it is a very small way to be kind.

If you read the thread, you will find many, many patiently explained posts as to why this is really not 'kind' and is a gateway to a whole lot of problems for women.

You could try listening and engaging with those problems and looking for some compromise by taking women's views and needs and experiences seriously instead of sneering at them. Compromise is possible. Why wouldn't you want solutions that work for all if you care about inclusion, tolerance and kindness? Where's your reciprocation?
Demand without return isn't going to work.

motheroffour824 · 27/12/2021 10:20

@Grumpyosaurus

I'll be respectful and use pronouns in person.

But when talking about someone like Lia Thomas, whose XY chromosomes are a serious issue, I refuse to use she/her because it lacks clarity. I worry that if I use 'he' I'll get a deletion from MN so I use [pronoun].

I totally understand this. Blind acceptance is never helpful, you're engaging with it critically which is far more than some people on here
Grumpyosaurus · 27/12/2021 10:19

I'll be respectful and use pronouns in person.

But when talking about someone like Lia Thomas, whose XY chromosomes are a serious issue, I refuse to use she/her because it lacks clarity. I worry that if I use 'he' I'll get a deletion from MN so I use [pronoun].

motheroffour824 · 27/12/2021 10:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Artichokeleaves · 27/12/2021 10:18

I'm allowed to call myself the Queen of Sheffield if I want to... that's not really much of an argument, is it? It's probably not going to fly that far for either of us in the cold light of day.

motheroffour824 · 27/12/2021 10:17

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Do please tell us how we tell men pretending to be TW from TW when it’s “acceptance with exception” and “no debate”. If a man says he’s a women then he is and that’s all that’s required is it not?
Of course you know nothing about me, and I am extremely glad of that, but I don't actually believe in the loose self identification I talk of. I believe formal transitioning should be a longer process, and especially so regarding our young. But I respect pronouns either way, because it is a very small way to be kind.
HaroldMeeker · 27/12/2021 10:17

Oh, are you trans? That explains everything.

Artichokeleaves · 27/12/2021 10:17

Transwomen are male. There is no difference between a sincere lovely TW and any other male when they walk into a women's space - they have immediately stopped it from being a single sex space, their presence excludes some females from any space at all, and as one male person their needs are perceived as outweighing every single female who ever has or ever will use that space.

This is just flat out male supremacist. Your argument really is that this group of male people are so special and vulnerable that females as a sex class must be subordinated to them. No.

Not to mention: there is no way to gatekeep whether a male entering a female space is a TW at all, never mind a lovely one or one who intends to do what Karen White did to multiple women using their access on demand to female only spaces. If it's any male, it's all males. This whole 'but predatory men are a different group' is nonsense, isn't it? The only way to tell is whether or not a woman is left damaged when the male leaves the space he chose to enter.

It's staggering how subhuman you seem to think females are compared to males.

motheroffour824 · 27/12/2021 10:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn as it quotes a deleted post.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/12/2021 10:14

Do please tell us how we tell men pretending to be TW from TW when it’s “acceptance with exception” and “no debate”. If a man says he’s a women then he is and that’s all that’s required is it not?

Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person
HaroldMeeker · 27/12/2021 10:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/12/2021 10:12

@motheroffour824

The issue of mixed sex/gender neutral spaces is a problem regarding men, not trans women. If someone has legally transitioned and their birth certificate is now altered, you have no leg to stand on. They are a woman now.
Trans women are men otherwise what are they transitioning from

Secondly the vast majority of TW don’t have a GRC so are not ‘legally’ women

But you crack on with what you want to do as regards TW but you don’t get to give away my rights to single sex spaces so that you feel better about keeping men happy

motheroffour824 · 27/12/2021 10:09

If you're not 'genuinely' scared that this ideology's political agenda fights for things like giving rapists access to incarcerated women are part of their sentence, then you're either callous behind belief or haven't been paying attention.

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 27/12/2021 10:08

@Helleofabore

Essentially as soon as a political project is attached to using preferred pronouns, it becomes a problem to use them unless you are really on board with that political program.

Just read this. And yes, anyone denying the political value of this action has either an agenda or lacks the depth of knowledge to see the political machinations behind it.

The political dimensions, thought totalism and control of language are discussed in this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?msgid=111900052

DialSquare · 27/12/2021 10:08

@motheroffour824

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity. They may never understand the struggles of women in the way you all for some reason are concerned with, but they'll go through struggles more severe than I'll ever know. I open my arms to them. I find all of your insecurity staggering. By calling someone a "woman" when they biologically are otherwise isn't signing myself up for something. If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry! The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.
What a load of utter bollocks. I'm embarrassed for you.

"you all for some reason are concerned with,"

Seriously? You don't know why we are concerned with the struggles of women and girls? You do know where you are posting don't you?

Datun · 27/12/2021 10:04

@motheroffour824

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity. They may never understand the struggles of women in the way you all for some reason are concerned with, but they'll go through struggles more severe than I'll ever know. I open my arms to them. I find all of your insecurity staggering. By calling someone a "woman" when they biologically are otherwise isn't signing myself up for something. If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry! The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.
If you're not 'genuinely' scared that this ideology's political agenda fights for things like giving rapists access to incarcerated women are part of their sentence, then you're either callous behind belief or haven't been paying attention.

Superficial anger? Bloody hell, that takes some arrogance.

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 10:02

Avon? Yes that is a bit off the wall.

There are two issues with pronouns, I think.

First is the compelled speech aspect, it's effectively asking someone to mouth something like they accept JC as their personal Lord and saviour when they don't. Some people are okay with this kind of lie. Some people aren't. I baulk at lies and always have, so while I'm happy to sing a wee hymn I would feel dishonest chanting a prayer and forcing someone to do so is wrong. Personally I feel it is disrespectful to a religion to mouth the tenets without actually believing, but I appreciate I am a pedant.

Second are the implied consequences. To use female pronouns for a male is to suggest one endorses and supports the idea that people can change sex and that males should be included in women's spaces.

This is akin to forcing a minority to accede to an oppressor. To further the religious analogy, like forcing a Rohingya Muslim to chant the four Noble Truths of Buddhism, perhaps (not a theology expert).

Datun · 27/12/2021 10:00

@Artichokeleaves

This is coming from a cisgendered straight woman

It makes no difference if it's coming from a frost gendered vegan Libra.

You educate yourself. You understand. There's a whole thread here of women patiently explaining, reasoning, expressing their half of the conversation. Start there and try actually reading it.

It must surely be dawning that this relying entirely on what amounts to 'do what I say you stupid meanie heads (stamp)' is really not working. Women have been really quite staggeringly patient considering the ruddy awful behaviour and treatment they've been drenched with by this political lobby.

It's past time that the lobby started doing some leg work themselves, and started re thinking their own issues with intolerance, prejudice and an absolute inability to listen to or show willingness to compromise with anyone else.

Well quite.

See the ridiculous assumption of:

This is the same with gender pronouns. You may not "get it", but someone who is a nice person will use the preferred pronouns anyway.

Of course we 'get it'.

There are thousands of threads about it. From the testimony of trans widows to the incisive opinion piece 'pronouns are rohypnol'.

Not to mention the millions of words expended over the issue of compelling women into actions which are self evidentially detrimental to them under the guise of being 'nice'.

motheroffour824 · 27/12/2021 09:59

The issue of mixed sex/gender neutral spaces is a problem regarding men, not trans women. If someone has legally transitioned and their birth certificate is now altered, you have no leg to stand on. They are a woman now.

motheroffour824 · 27/12/2021 09:57

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity. They may never understand the struggles of women in the way you all for some reason are concerned with, but they'll go through struggles more severe than I'll ever know. I open my arms to them. I find all of your insecurity staggering. By calling someone a "woman" when they biologically are otherwise isn't signing myself up for something. If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry! The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 27/12/2021 09:50

I’m completely confused by the avon rep

And why people feel the need to say ‘as a cis gendered….’ Or ‘I’m as gc as they come…..’ just say what you think

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