Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

I especially loved the passive aggressive use of "darling" in that response to me. Very revealing.

@Helleofabore - I was trying to post a calm response to mother and to work out why these particular kind of posts arouse my hackles so much, but you did it for me. So thanks for an excellent post. And to "branleuse - so true that TRAs are doing immense damage to trans people who are just trying to get on with their lives and that it need never have got to this toxic argument, but do they give a fuck - do they hell!

Secondly, the overwhelming majority of TW in the female prison estate are sex offenders that is those with and without a GRC so do bugger off with this TW are gentle beings who would never do anything wrong or commit a sexual offence because it is bullshit.

Yes it is a males doing it, TW are male it's the qualifying criteria for being a TW.

The overwhelming majority of TW do not have their male genitalia removed, it remains and is fully functional and that is those with and without a GRC, medical intervention to remove the male genitalia is not a requirement for obtaining a GRC.

So, how do you tell whether the male sharing any female only single sex space has a GRC which provides the legal fiction that they have changed sex and is a nice, kind non threatening male, or someone pretending? Are you, like Lalya Moran able to see souls?

Actually, a trans woman is allowed to call themselves a mother if they want darling

Ahh! So you are full aware of the effect of ‘just use pronouns’ and be kind.

Yes, transitioned males and transitioned females are now pushing to have other words changed to suit themselves.

Like the bill that required ‘six words’ added to ensure that traumatised females had confidence that the female medical examiner they requested would be provided and would be female. Not ‘identifies as a female’.

And yes, even female is in the asset claim.

Do you understand the roots of Queer Theory and how the acts of destabilising language, science and laws works? You have heard of Michel Foucault haven’t you? If not, look him up. Quite the person you want to be allied with really.

Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before.

Why mention you are transgender? There is absolutely no need except in certain medical situations. You didn't transition to be transgender, you transitioned to be a woman. Live your life and be happy.

I'm so bored with men telling us to behave and do what men want. Fuck that shit.

Me too. I'm so bored with them trying to create sub categories of themselves, all with different criteria that only applies to them personally, to demand access. The overwhelmingly self serving aspect is so depressing.

No. Just no.

There is a distinction between legal sex and biological sex that is recognised in law.

If trans people have little understanding or interest in issues that affect women but not themselves do you think it wise to cede women’s positions of influence to these people (so further reducing women’s effective representation in public life) or should we create specific positions for them?

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

Again, link up your evidence that transitioning decreases the rate of committing sex crime.

Plus, yes. You understand there is also an issue about MEN. Those who use the loopholes to full advantage.

They say they ARE trans. Who the fuck are you to tell them they are not? That is very transphobic. Anyone that denies someone their identity, even one where they are only identifying as a woman part of the time, is transphobic.

Either some or all of the rapists, sex offenders and predators who are being called “she” by the courts and the press are lying about being trans, and you have to acknowledge that such dangerous males would lie and use self-ID to manipulate the system, therefore concerns around safety are valid

OR

these predators are genuinely trans and you have to acknowledge that males who identify as trans are proportionately just as much a risk to females as males who don’t, meaning concerns around safety are valid.

The issue is men.

All men have the potential to behave in ways tha are typically male.

Whether they are in trousers or a skirt, whether they call themselves Patrick or Patricia.

Whether they have surgery or change their bodies or not.

Any why should it be up to women who make space for these men? Why can't men sort themselves out? Why can't they campaign to be safe in male toilets, changing rooms and prisons?

We aren't supposed to be on their planet to be some sort of protective blanket around these men.

I'm so bored with men telling us to behave and do what men want. Fuck that shit.

And, in case it's not clear, all transwomen are male. It's a condition that has to be met before they can call themselves a transwoman.

Shall we link you up with the hand disaggregated statistics showing how many transitioned males are currently in UK prisons for sex crimes? They were presented in court recently so, has been accepted as evidence.

But YOUR reading list must include some powerful evidence to have convinced you otherwise. Please link it up so we know if your assertions are based on credible evidence or just emotional manipulation.

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women

Transwomen are men. They wouldn't be trans otherwise would they.

And you seem to have forgotten that if a transwoman is a woman if they say so. Acceptance without exception.

Sounds like you're saying that only the pure people that don't do bad things can be allowed to be transwomen. Otherwise they're not real trans. Are you gatekeeping who should and shouldn't be allowed to enter womanhood?

I suggest you check your thinking. You sound like a bigot darling.

I'll add: important to remember that White injured (severely) several women by sex offending whilst using their access to female only spaces by being a TW.

Also to add: what does the person on the door do if they feel the male in front of them is not sincerely TW (or someone's lovely friend) and the male says 'I'm going in anyway and you can't stop me because I can?'

It's not OK OP and it's becoming a very hate filled and devisive topic online which will be filtering out into the real world. People telling you to change who you hang out with etc are just ignorant. The internet gives people the skewed view that people are more accepting than they are.

Yep. Barbie Kardashian is legally female, I believe, grc and all. And Karen White, Katie Dolatowski are real transwomen, whatever their grc status. I believe them when they say they are transwomen. It's certainly not up to me to gatekeep their gender identity.

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity.

I am sure they are. However, so what? They are still demanding something from others that they feel entitled to.

They may never understand the struggles of women in the way you all for some reason are concerned with, but they'll go through struggles more severe than I'll ever know.

Thank you for acknowledging this.

OF COURSE, they need their OWN protections. I have rarely come across someone posting on MN that did not support them having protection for their own discrimination.

It seems that it is you who do not understand what is at stake here for women and children.

I open my arms to them.

That’s nice.

I find all of your insecurity staggering.

I find your ignorance staggering and dangerous to women. Women are already being harmed and you are choosing to ignore it and to persist in trying to pressure others to ignore it. You are not being kind here. You are complicit in the harm being done at policy and legislative level.

By calling someone a "woman" when they biologically are otherwise isn't signing myself up for something.

And that is where you are wrong. This argument has already been used by activists. Particularly in the area of sport.

That you don’t know this is your own issue.

I get that you are so steeped in righteousness that you cannot see it or admit that it is happening.

Here are to active threads where the repercussions of ‘just being nice’ has led. If you only read these superficially too, you will miss the part where the swimmer declares how they are completely supported by their team mates, who a few have now stated publicly that all female team mates have in fact, complained and been told to STFU. They won’t say anything publicly because they are in danger of losing scholarships and team positions. Nice eh?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4414643-Penn-s-Lia-Thomas-breaks-200-500-Free-records-in-meet-with-Princeton-Cornell

And if you only read this one superficially, or with the intent of not believing how serious this is for any female who needs single spaces, then you are determined to ignore the needs of rape victims. I have pasted the link started at the victim’s, Sarah’s, reply but it is worth reading from the start.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4412984-A-woman-driven-out-of-her-therapy-group-by-a-trans-womans-presence?msgid=112862936#112862936

But wait… do I see a ‘well they are the one with the issue so they should be excluded’? Like we have not seen that from the ‘be kind’ brigade before.

If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry!

It is you who has the superficial understanding here. It is you ‘spouting’ crap on the internet without actually looking beyond that glittering surface to see what has already started to happen.

Please tell us, how many women and how many children are good collateral damage in your heart. 1, 5, 100, 1000?
x = n+1 is usually the answer.

Yet you are determined to ignore the harms. You are effectively calling us scared, pearl clutchers. And we have seen it all before.

You should see some of the attempts by posters using ‘prude’ and ‘pearl clutchers’ and what safeguarding principles they are determined are ignored. To benefit the very people you are prioritising above women and children.

The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.

You know the saying ‘the more things change, the more they stay the same’ (paraphrasing as I can’t be arsed to go and copy and paste).

That is very true in this regard.

Misogyny is like that. It finds a way to perpetuate itself within society. And finds well meaning allies to do it.

Ok so I'm not up on the whole pronoun sex or gender definitions and quite honestly I'm making no effort to find out because ultimately I don't care enough. I do understand people may feel they're born in the wrong body and that must be awful but until you have a sex change if you have a penis you're male and if you have a vagina you're female. What does make me angry is having to define myself as a Cis woman or a person who menstruates no I'm just a woman and I'm sorry but you are not.

Not to mention who is going to stand at the doorway of each female space and check whether this is a genuine TW or not?

And then what do we do about people like Karen White who are genuinely TW, but have left a trail of extremely damaged, injured women in their wake through sex offending? What does the person on the door do then?

And what are we going to do about the trail of female people left without any space, services or resources at all because they cannot use the mixed sex space that the lovely and sincere TW are using? They're tax payers, they're covered by words like inclusion and kindness too, those words aren't just for males. What do we do with them now that males have removed their access?

And when I say 'We' you can apply that either to individual women risk assessing for themselves or to society as a whole. What us the metric test or criteria by which we can sort true trans women from those pretending to be trans?

I’m not sure someone like you can read, but no, I am a straight biological female

There are a number of trans people saying they are cis and female so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for harold to check

And it would be jolly handy if you practiced what you preached, be kind and all that…

Sorry if thay want clear - I mean what is the difference between a male pretending to be a transwoman and a male who actually is a transwoman? And how can we tell?

Women are okay to be cautious about predatory men, yes? So tell us how we can distinguish between a true and a false transwoman, please. Thanks.