Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

Soontobe60

Thats odd. I never use pronouns when talking with my friends.

I'd have thought it was obvious I meant when asking about said friend not talking to them directly.
For example I met up with their wife recently. She asked after my dc. I asked after non binary friend, specifically did they get the job they applied for.

Hi OP
I'm a gender critical
feminist.
I wouldn't be rude to you.
I'd happily call you "she/her"
I'm sorry people have been disrespectful towards you.

Would you be happy if someone differentiated between you as a trans woman & me as a biological woman?

Would you be offended if I asked you not to call me cis?

Place marking to see if the OP shows up again.

I’d be happy to use what name and pronouns you choose. I don’t believe you are a woman, but if you you want to live/identify as one, that’s fine by me. I think that’s true of the majority of gender critical people. We are concerned about the erosion of women, and the subsequent loss of women’s rights and voices.

There will be some gender critical people who would not refer to a biological male by female pronouns, not out of discourtesy but because they believe the term is inaccurate and its use for biological males is harmful to women. I think none or very few of those people would want to cause you distress, they are simply focused on a bigger picture. I’d hope all of them would use your chosen name and avoid using male pronouns when referring to you - it’s usually possible to avoid pronouns.

As I am BBC sure others have sad, what is respectful about women having to say things that they know are not true?

It is possible to talk to you, framing the sentences to not use pronouns. But what else do you call ‘respectful’ conversation?

Typo, frameworks was supposed to read transwomen.

I for one do not believe you can change your biological sex and I refuse to pretend I believe in it. I will use your first name, but not she/her. The demands have gotten to the point of rape being listed as crimes committed by women. And next will be ANY male can be in rape support groups and changing rooms for kicks because, after all, SO many women are rapists too (with our non-existent girldicks). Most of us have been pushed too far, we are rightfully furious, and refuse to pretend frameworks are all poor innocent dainty flowers. When you rape us, when you tell us to shut up, when you demand we pretend to believe you are who you demand you to be, well that's when you are showing your male privilege. No thanks.

It is ok to ask people to call you a woman. I would almost certainly do so out of politeness, even though I don't believe you are one. But I don't believe people should be compelled to do so.

And tbh it's understandable that many women don't feel inclined to call natal men women, when they see increasing evidence of transwomen, or men pretending to be transwomen, intruding into women's spaces, ruining women's sport, committing secual crimes and their crimes being recorded as committed by a woman etc. There is no way of telling whether a natal male who states that they identify as a woman is in fact dysphoric or even trans, so expecting women to just automatically 'be kind' about this seems unreasonable tbh.

The vast majority of women with GC beliefs are happy to respect trans people's pronouns - but we are concerned about women's safety.

@WhiteFlagHeldAloft I would generally refer to someone who presented as female (but I could tell was possibly or clearly not), as 'she' or 'her' out of politeness.
I know someone who is clearly in this bracket, works in women's fashion, is quite shy, clearly very self-conscious, and a lovely person, and someone I would never wish to be made to feel uncomfortable or not accepted.

I treat individuals on their merits - hate bad manners, rudeness, and ignorance though.
But uphold the individual's rights to live their lives according to their own wishes and beliefs, as long as not impinging negatively on anyone else.

Attacking sex-based protections, self-id, pushing ideology on children, refuting the meaning of 'woman' - that's going way beyond acceptable, and unfortunately likely to result in a push back against identifiable groups who are being lobbied for in that way. The balance has been lost, sadly, and that's not how to win hearts and minds, and improved acceptance and courtesy from folk you meet out and about.

I’m afraid I stopped respecting requests to adhere to preferred pronouns when it became clear that there was very little respect for women from most transpeople, especially transwomen. Okay, using a female public loo “just to pee” is less extreme than posing with one’s erection in a woman’s refuge or punching a women for daring to speak out in favour of women’s rights, but it’s still riding roughshod over women’s need for their own spaces.

I’ve spent most of my life trying to break down the regressive stereotypes gender adherence forces on us, I’m not going to start the equivalent of genuflecting at its altar now just because someone will be offended if I don’t agree that womanhood can be reduced to sugar and spice and all things nice.

@WhiteFlagHeldAloft I'm not sure why you think the answer to your question is to be found here?
Sadly too many people don't have the capacity to show common courtesy to anyone these days.

I've been waiting for the op to come back.

How surprised am I

Either women are being twattish pointing it out, and transwomen wouldn’t claim “you can’t tell” and would need to acknowledge that everyone can, or women can tell but don’t say anything, and transwomen wrongly take this as evidence that women can’t tell

This

To whom would I report the incident?

The forced use of pronouns may be damaging as pointed out in the linked article.

uncommongroundmedia.com/banned-from-medium-pronouns-are-rohypnol/

As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing, and without incident

This contradiction was brought up on another thread recently. Of course women can notice it. But:

Either women are being twattish pointing it out, and transwomen wouldn’t claim “you can’t tell” and would need to acknowledge that everyone can, or women can tell but don’t say anything, and transwomen wrongly take this as evidence that women can’t tell.

I also find the whole 'transwomen have always used single sex spaces and it's fine, you couldn't even notice' argument a very strange one.

Taking away the idea that women very likely did know and were too polite or scared to say anything, someone using a single sex space knowing that they shouldn't be (due to their sex) is hardly showing that they respect boundaries around women's needs. Why this is used as a 'gotcha' so often is a bit baffling.

Happy to be courteous and will use your preferred name and pronoun. However I believe trans women are trans women and I can't refer to trans women as women as the ramifications to women are significant if they become a subcategory of their own sex.

But I don't have an issue with any individual trans women that, as you do, doesn't encroach on women's single sex spaces.

Truth is: You can tell and it does happen.