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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you believe in biology?

63 replies

RVN123 · 22/12/2021 18:00

Just wondered if anyone actually believes in biology anymore?
Do you think we should lobby schools and universities to change their curriculums to include the new scientific facts?
E.g.
Men can become women
Women can become men
Genetics don't matter
Men can give birth
Men who give birth are not mothers
Sex is on a spectrum

etc.
Do you think we should be censored if we ever dare to speak about biology, even when we are not being derogatory towards anyone but just speaking biological truths?
Do biological truths even exist anymore?

To quote Homer Simpson, "'I'm the magical man, from happy land. I live in a gum drop house, on Lollipop Lane"...........

I'm being sarcastic.

OP posts:
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ScrollingLeaves · 31/12/2021 00:28

Yes, Immutable, they are nice indeed.

Jux · 30/12/2021 17:49

Only just seen those two, ImmutableSexQueen. Nicely done, both, nicely done!

ImmutableSexQueen · 29/12/2021 08:20

In the interests of fairness I can cannibalise pre-existing works for the other side, too.

If your breasts are too annoying
Cut them off!
If your breasts are too annoying
Cut them off!
If they make you look too girly
And you'd rather be a-boying
If your breasts are too annoying
Cut them off!

If your balls are too annoying
Cut them off!
If your balls are too annoying
Cut them off!
If your balls are too annoying
And too easy to be toying
If your balls are too annoying
Cut them off!

It your dick is too annoying
Cut it off!
If your dick is too annoying
Cut it off!
If its just dangling there destroying
All your fantasies of girling
If your dick is too annoying
Cut it off!

ImmutableSexQueen · 29/12/2021 07:35

Biology is real. Biological sex is immutable. Men are men, women are women. Women are one complete category. Women are not incomplete or faulty men. We need a creed...

I believe in sex,
That sex is immutable
Maker of female and male
And in sexual reproduction
Conception requires gametes
Female and a male
I believe that women are free
To choose their lifestyles and dress codes
Without reference to stereotypes
Of femininity or other
I believe that children should not
Have their genitals mutilated
And that such procedures are abuse
I stand with women
Who defend our existence
Against those who would
Change our language
And limit our lives,
Women like Kellie-Jay, JKR
And Exulansic.
Amen.

Bosky · 29/12/2021 07:10

@JellySaurus

She says that all embryos begin as female.

That's what I was taught 35 years ago. But I was also taught to keep a person warm if they had a fever, and to put butter on burns.

Same here - several times - in Zoology A Level, then Human Biology at University and then in a University course on Embryology that we studied with medical students.

(About embryos - not fever and butter on burns Grin )

I keep seeing people poo-pooing the idea but until very recently that is how it was understood that mammalian embryos developed, ie. the default was female.

This was also cited as an explanation for males being less likely to result in a live birth and being less likely to thrive and survive in early childhood, ie. due to the stress of the shift in the "natural" developmental pathway from female to male.

According to this article, the "default female theory" was only disproved in 2017.

It’s Hard Work Being a Boy (and, It Turns Out, a Girl)
SEPTEMBER 6, 2017

Basic biology tells us that in humans and other mammals, embryos with two X chromosomes develop as females, whereas embryos with one X and one Y chromosome develop as males. If only it were that simple. As it turns out, genetic makeup doesn’t fully determine which sexual organs will develop in utero.

Every developing embryo, irrespective of its sex, at one point contains both male and female reproductive tracts, referred to as the wolffian duct and the müllerian duct, respectively. If the fetus produces testosterone and the anti-müllerian hormone (AMH) gene products from the Y chromosome — these molecules elicit cellular signaling events that lead to the destruction of the female müllerian ducts. The wolffian ducts subsequently develop into male reproductive organs, such as the seminal vesicles, vas deferens and accessory structures. In the absence of testosterone or AMH, the wolffian ducts degenerate and the müllerian ducts develop into female reproductive organs including the fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix and upper vagina. These pathways were first identified and elucidated in the 1940s by the French endocrinologist Alfred Jost, who conducted intricate experiments using rabbits and showed that female development is a "default" pathway that needs to be actively overridden for the development of male sex organs.

A new study published in Science by Humphrey Yao, Ph.D. challenges this age-old concept of the female pathway as “default” and shows that the development of femaleness is also an active process. The authors implicated a protein called COUP-TFII as a key player that is required to actively eliminate the wolffian duct in a developing female embryo in order to give it female characteristics.

Continued at:
biomedicalodyssey.blogs.hopkinsmedicine.org/2017/09/its-hard-work-being-a-boy-and-it-turns-out-a-girl/

ColinRobinsonsFart · 26/12/2021 19:33

*sun not son!

ColinRobinsonsFart · 26/12/2021 19:32

I do not believe in biology just as I don’t believe the earth goes round the son. I know .

I have witnessed biology, I have seen biology, I have held biology in my hands as a midwife, a nurse and a theatre sister who mostly worked in gynaecology. I have been a witness and a participant in the birth of humans, abortions, the removal of reproductive organs … I don’t believe in biology, I know biology …..

Jux · 26/12/2021 18:48

blibbyblobby, too much like a soul for me. Whether or not I believe in them myself, many do not, by what right are they forced to pretend they do? That is a return to mediaeval times.

nannybeach · 24/12/2021 17:33

I don't "believe" I am woman, I know I am!!!

ScrollingLeaves · 23/12/2021 14:50

RVN123
I liked that video too, thank you.

JellySaurus · 23/12/2021 14:35

@RedPandaWanda

Well according to the male to female trans woman in my family, biology really doesn’t exist (or at the very least is irrelevant), they were and always have been female! Yet how can they explain the fact they have impregnated two cis women which resulted in 3 live born humans. Is that not biology, or did the stork bring these children down to earth? Pfff!
If you change the language, words can mean anything. Why should not a klaarj be able to impregnate a woman and therefore be a parent to the resulting child? Don't worry about what klaarj means. It means anything you want it to mean.
RVN123 · 23/12/2021 13:52

Enjoyed this today.

OP posts:
Blibbyblobby · 23/12/2021 13:11

@RedPandaWanda

I'm actually fine with the concept of an innate mental "thing" that humans of both sexes can share that we are only just starting to understand.

I'm also fine if that "thing" is the real source of some "feminine" qualities that we culturally, but incorrectly, assigned to female people. I think the less we assign innate mental qualities to sex the better.

(While recognising and continuing to mitigate the effect of socialisation until such a time as we have been able to thoroughly unpick the historical sexism still embedded in our culture.)

What I'm not fine with, the mental leap I can't make, is why this thing which is manifestly not body sex is being presented as a total replacement for body sex, to the point where all the provisions that were put in place based on clear social or physical differences between the male and female populations are assumed to be completely appropriate exactly as they are for a system that replaces sex with gender even though the differences they were conceived in response to do not necessarily exist between individuals of different gender.

I just keep coming back to "if we didn't have sex, just gender, and everyone's gender was immediately clear (I imagine it like a soft coloured light over their heart..perhaps a bit too much ET as a young child Grin)...why would we have set up separate sports, rights, spaces etc for men and women in the first place?" What is it in the gender differences that drives a need for them given that no one can even describe what the genders, or the differences between them, actually are?

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2021 12:28

@Jux

I don't know why this hasn't been banished and mocked in the same way Creationism was. It's ridiculous.
Creationism, unfortunately, is far from being banished in the US and elsewhere.
Jux · 23/12/2021 12:23

I don't know why this hasn't been banished and mocked in the same way Creationism was. It's ridiculous.

RedPandaWanda · 23/12/2021 12:18

Well according to the male to female trans woman in my family, biology really doesn’t exist (or at the very least is irrelevant), they were and always have been female! Yet how can they explain the fact they have impregnated two cis women which resulted in 3 live born humans. Is that not biology, or did the stork bring these children down to earth? Pfff!

JellySaurus · 23/12/2021 12:12

Fair enough.

I think the answer to what they have in common is that they are co-religionists, members of the same faith.

I doubt they would express it that way!

Blibbyblobby · 23/12/2021 11:47

@JellySaurus

In this case I'm using "cis" to refer to women who identify themselves as cis - the ones who do recognise something gendery in common with trans women.

I entirely agree that many - probably the majority - of female people do not identify as "cis women".

I choose to use genderist words if I am asking genderists to explain their core concepts because I think it's fair to ask them "on home ground" so to speak. I think rephrasing genderist concepts in a way a gender critical person would think of them is missing the point, kind of by definition! I genuinely want to hear how genderists think about this stuff (I do seek out genderist sources and talk with trans people as well).

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2021 11:27

I am still very unclear about what trans women and cis women have in common that no other humans do,

Apart from the easy one... most people who adopt those labels don't care about women's sex based rights? (There are some honourable exceptions among TW)

JellySaurus · 23/12/2021 11:05

Hah! That's the gender critical woman speaking. Of course according to trans ideology it would be that certain males and certain females are both subsets of 'women'.

JellySaurus · 23/12/2021 11:03

I am still very unclear about what trans women and cis women have in common that no other humans do,

Please do not label us 'cis' women.

Transwomen insist on the 'cis' in order to create a false commonality, as if certain males and all females are both subsets of 'women'.

We are not a subset of women. We are females. We are women.

nauticant · 23/12/2021 10:51

My favourite new scientific fact is that the treatment transwomen receive enable them to grow a cervix. David Lammy should be up for some kind of award for this.

twitter.com/LBC/status/1443125834626260993

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2021 10:27

It was a news story re items 4&5 on the OPs list yesterday, WheresTheBeach.

Mumsnet does allow some discussions about biological reality. It's explicitly stated in the guidelines that they do. The tricky part is to navigate the space which is sufficiently civil (which in general is a good rule), but harder is the 'not generalising' vs 'not focussing too much on a named individual' type of thing.

Wheresthebeach · 23/12/2021 10:19

Agree women are being told to shut up and give up their rights. Its why Fair Play to Women, and Sex Matters are so important.

I've not seen what's been shut down today, but if Mumsnet isn't allowing discussions about biological reality that's going to be a real shame.

I do think the tide is turning, Stonewall being seen for what it is, but we've a long way to go.

Blibbyblobby · 23/12/2021 10:15

@NoNotMeNoSiree

Doesn't mean they can't support and accept people who are trans too.

Of course people who are trans should be supported with the challenges of being gender-nonconforming.

As should female people be supported with the challenges of being female in a structrurally and culturally sexist society.

And, sex being real and not the same thing as gender identity, there is no reason the support for female people cannot be separate to and coexist with the support for trans people. And of course it should be open to female people who happen to be trans, should they need it.

Given that this thread is about the reality of sex, can you please clarify how gender identity and biological sex relate to each other? I am still very unclear about what trans women and cis women have in common that no other humans do, and why that commonality, even though it cannot be externally perceived (hence the need for self id) is yet considered by genderists to be more relevant to how a person navigates, is treated by and experiences society in terms of safety, dignity, opportunity, employment, harassment, respect, sports and so on than the physical fact of body sex.