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Tom Daley Christmas message

168 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 21/12/2021 16:29

Tom Daley is giving the alternative Christmas message on Channel 4 this year.

www.channel4.com/press/news/tom-daley-deliver-2021-alternative-christmas-message

Scroll down the above page for the text of the speech.

I am fine with him praising Quinn but he skips over the other conflicting arguments and issues over including transwomen in women's sport.

He is however spot on with the ridiculousness of major sports granting the prestige of the top competitions to places with dubious human rights records.

OP posts:
Lovelyricepudding · 26/12/2021 15:07

It would be more gracious (and accurate) to say "the first out trans Olympic medallist who won goldwiththe Canadian women’s soccer team". Soccer teams usually field eleven players, not just one.

Would it though?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 26/12/2021 14:46

Going back for a moment to the nit-witted diver that the thread is about:

In his speechette he says "the first out trans Olympic medallist who won gold for the Canadian women’s soccer team".

It would be more gracious (and accurate) to say "the first out trans Olympic medallist who won gold with the Canadian women’s soccer team". Soccer teams usually field eleven players, not just one.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 26/12/2021 14:35

ClaudiaWankleman
It's an intentional straw man to call it 'buying a human', for the obvious reason.

What else is it called if someone gives money to obtain permanent possession of a thing, if it is not buying that thing?

And what is a baby if not human?

Helleofabore · 26/12/2021 12:04

I think in trying to be kind, some people do pretzel their thoughts to make this into something it is not.

This most definitely is creating a child for someone. A deliberate act that does indeed remove that infant from their birth mother directly after birth. Does Tom Daley keep the child in contact with the surrogate? Include that surrogate in the life of the child?

As pps continue to point out, there is a chasm between surrogacy and adoption of a child already created. However I think many people like to gloss over the distinction. Designer babies is never comfortable to acknowledge is happening.

Also, the minimising of the risks associated with pregnancy is appalling. Being pregnant causes so many reactions in the body. Many minor things that people wouldn’t even think about. But yes, ultimately some that are life limiting, and certainly some that remove fertility forever.

And not just the surrogates but the egg donors as well. As some young student egg donors have discovered in the USA.

No. When you get men insisting on ‘equal reproductive rights’ in New York, meaning ‘some woman can carry my child and put their body in danger and receive a modicum of funds for the risk and it is MY RIGHT to have this service’, you know there is something seriously fucked up in society and with the process.

Lovelyricepudding · 26/12/2021 07:41

Actually when it comes to overseas adoption then yes that too can amount to buying a child. It is a reason why many countries forbid their children from being adopted overseas. We know that the children 'aquired' for this are not always the abandoned orphans they are presented as. So yes, 'adoption fees' can also be buying a child and some aspects of the adoption trade is little more than people trafficking.

NotBadConsidering · 25/12/2021 23:43

Quite simply, the money exchanged isn’t for a person, it’s for the process. Unless you also consider adoption fees slavery?

Of course it’s for the person. If I commission someone to build me some furniture, I’m not paying them for the process of building a bookshelf only for them to keep it for themselves am I? Hmm

And besides, why is paying a woman for the process of putting themselves through a pregnancy for someone else’s benefit okay?

UltraVividLament · 25/12/2021 22:55

Of course it's for the baby. The baby wouldn't exist unless "commissioned". An adopted child already exists. Can you really not tell the difference?

ClaudiaWankleman · 25/12/2021 22:53

I note that the poster who said it was obvious why it wasn't buying and selling humans hasn't come back to tell me why..

The poster has been run ragged sorting Christmas, work and positive covid tests @Kotatsu

Quite simply, the money exchanged isn’t for a person, it’s for the process. Unless you also consider adoption fees slavery?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 24/12/2021 15:48

Agree, with Rose, Benji. An infant being removed from it's mother is always a tragedy, even if it is a best scene scenario because the mother is unable to meet the baby's needs.

I listened to this podcast which I found interesting. Even altruistic surrogacy has consequences. open.spotify.com/show/4DgaWNgwGm8o7aHMhDYM9M

RoseWindow · 23/12/2021 13:15

Benji I am sorry for the loss and trauma you've had. It's highly relevant to this discussion. We need to learn from the evidence and lived experience of people who have been through these parallel experiences.

Kotatsu · 23/12/2021 10:38

I note that the poster who said it was obvious why it wasn't buying and selling humans hasn't come back to tell me why..

Lovelyricepudding · 23/12/2021 09:19

Surrogacy is the commodification of human life. It is the buying and selling of individuals. In lockdown 'stock' had to be stored in Ukraine as purchasers were unable to take delivery of their 'product'. Defective 'products' are routinely rejected. Did we outlaw slavery over a century ago or did we just say it is OK so long as the individuals are babies and aside from tearing them away from their mothers and countries of birth you are otherwise kind to them?

SirVixofVixHall · 22/12/2021 21:49

@RVN123

The remarkable achievements of trans athletes generally consists of the remarkable achievements of mediocre males who still have the ability to beat female athletes due to their male physiology.

Mediocre males.

Well done all you mediocre males.

This. And re surrogacy, the only people I know of who have children by surrogacy, chose a particular country because it was “the cheapest” . What happens afterwards to women used like this ? Say the baby is fine, the birth traumatic but not deadly - what about the consequences later ? Two of my friends have needed a hysterectomy as a direct consequence of giving birth. How do you compensate a woman for something like this, with whatever you have paid in this “cheap” country, to buy your baby ? Plus as everyone else is saying, a baby is the same as any of us, but small, they have all the same feelings, only no context. They carry within them all their lives the breaking of the bond between mother and child. How can anyone claim to be a loving parent when they have done this terrible thing to their baby ? Babies are not commodities.
Warmduscher · 22/12/2021 21:29

This was an interesting point made on Twitter.

Tom Daley Christmas message
Tom Daley Christmas message
KittenKong · 22/12/2021 20:20

@TrufflesAndToast

Chilling to hear some posters basically say that it doesn’t matter if you cause a newborn baby suffering as it won’t remember later. What kind of monster thinks like that?!
When I studied psychology there were still people who believed that babies didn’t feel pain. Obviously people who had never met a baby.
Leaveitonthefloordrobe · 22/12/2021 20:10

@TrufflesAndToast

Chilling to hear some posters basically say that it doesn’t matter if you cause a newborn baby suffering as it won’t remember later. What kind of monster thinks like that?!
Similar train of thought that people followed when deciding not to use pain relief when performing medical procedures on babies until well into the 20th century.
RepentMotherfucker · 22/12/2021 19:00

@TrufflesAndToast

Chilling to hear some posters basically say that it doesn’t matter if you cause a newborn baby suffering as it won’t remember later. What kind of monster thinks like that?!
People say this to me, all the fucking time about my DD. 'Oh but she would have been much too young to remember any of that'!

I wonder whether they would be ok with people abusing their own babies because they won't 'remember'? Fucking sociopathic frankly.

TrufflesAndToast · 22/12/2021 18:44

Chilling to hear some posters basically say that it doesn’t matter if you cause a newborn baby suffering as it won’t remember later. What kind of monster thinks like that?!

BenjiMcSchmenzie · 22/12/2021 18:17

@ClaudiaWankleman

Adoption is making the best of the circumstances we find ourselves in, and is acknowledged to be extremely difficult for all involved, hence the vetting and support. This is intentionally creating an adoption situation, intentionally traumatising a baby by removing it from its mother as soon as it's born, for money.

But what is the functional difference between a child removed at birth and placed into care, and a child brought up by parents other than the surrogate? I don't consider it 'intentional trauma'. A child at birth is unable to comprehend what is happening, and is certainly too young to be 'traumatised' if all their needs are met.

How dare you say that a child at birth is too young to be traumatised. HOW DARE YOU.

I was removed from my birth mother soon after birth.

49 years and a fuck tone of counselling later and I’m still not OK.

I’m one very small example; there are literally millions more. Just Google it fgs.

FlyingOink · 22/12/2021 18:00

Daley is a scumbag and his old man is too.

RepentMotherfucker · 22/12/2021 17:46

@ClaudiaWankleman

Feminist objections to surrogacy are around the comodification of women's bodies and the damage done to babies when we deliberately bring them into the world with the specific intent of removing them from their birth mothers.

So you're opposed to adoption?

I'm an adoptive mother myself. Which is how I know so much about the damage which is done to a baby when you remove it from its birth mother.

Your move Grin

GoodieMoomin · 22/12/2021 17:20

Sorry to be continue the surrogacy derail but it is an important subject.

For clarity idgaf about the sexual orientation of the person who commissions the baby. I don't think it can ever be ok to purposefully cause the creation of a new human life in these circumstances. Babies are not commodities. Women's bodies should never be for hire.

So-called "altruistic" surrogacy can get in the bin, too. I will repeat: having a baby is not a human right. Any incidence with happy outcomes for all parties does not negate the problems with surrogacy, which have already been discussed here. See also the "happy hooker".

FannyCann · 22/12/2021 17:15

DLB is campaigning to try and get the laws changed in the UK to resemble US surrogacy laws.

The Law Commission chose Dustin and in particular Tom Daley as their preferred celebrities to promote the changes in the laws that they propose. In fact the planned changes are pretty much off DLB's tick list, he practically did the research for them. And of course Tom, the people's hero is the perfect choice to win over the public.

This is their strategy document.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/599875/response/1597869/attach/4/Oasis%20strategy%20for%20Surrogacy%20DP.DOCX.docx?cookie_passthrough=1

Tom Daley Christmas message
TheMarzipanDildo · 22/12/2021 16:37

@ClaudiaWankleman

Pregnancy and childbirth continue to be among the most dangerous things a woman can do.

I'm not actually sure that's true. Of course there are many things that can happen during a pregnancy but in the UK pregnancy is incredibly safe. Something like 0.2% of women died of something pregnancy related 2016-2018 here which is the same death rate for pretty much anything else.

You're ignoring a woman's capacity to self determine. You don't have to be a surrogate.

We all make our own history, but not in circumstances of our choosing (to paraphrase Marx, I think)

While I’m sure there are plenty of women who would be happy to put their body through pregnancy only to give their baby away, there will be plenty more who are taking on the risks for some form of compensation. It’s not just the risk of death, health complications during pregnancy are relatively common. I would imagine surrogacy would also psychologically tough.

There is a reason it is mostly rich people hiring the wombs of poor women and not the other way around.

And all this is without even considering the needs of the baby.

CHEM20 · 22/12/2021 15:50

@ClaudiaWankleman

Feminist objections to surrogacy are around the comodification of women's bodies and the damage done to babies when we deliberately bring them into the world with the specific intent of removing them from their birth mothers.

So you're opposed to adoption?

Jesus wept.

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄