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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is Transgender a sexuality?

68 replies

ScrollingLeaves · 14/12/2021 23:33

A local school describes “Transgender” and “Questioning” as “sexuality” in the wording of their inclusivity policy. I can can see questioning might be seen as a sexuality but as it is from Q in LGBTQ, I had thought that meant Queer, and I thought transgender was to do with identity not sexuality.

Could anyone explain?

The policy says that no one must be discriminated against because of

“Differences of………

o sexuality (e.g. Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay, Transgender, Questioning - LBGTQ)”

OP posts:
CheeseMmmm · 16/12/2021 00:31

@Samoyeddad

Oh I see. That’s really weird as cross dressers are not transgender 🤔
How do you know? Why would the two be mutually exclusive?

Why are you asserting you know the gender identities of a whole group of people?

How do you know it's one or the other? No way both?

That's a really massive assertion.
Why do you think that and why so confident that it's correct?

ScrollingLeaves · 16/12/2021 00:21

Thank you everyone for your answers.
I did think sexuality meant whether you were attracted to the same or other sex, or both,
and that gender identity was not a sexuality.

It is confusing that the school wrote this given it is the top selective school in this region, where the sixth form is almost like a university, so you would think they would be more exact and thoughtful.

Among replies explaining possible reasons why there might be some ambiguity leading to ‘transgender’ possibly being seen as a sexuality,
@CheeseMmmm yes, I can see that when a heterosexual man becomes a trans woman he might say he was a lesbian.
@Linguini I think that may be what you mean in saying transgender and sexuality cross.

Cases of some trans women claiming they were lesbians, and expecting lesbians to accept them as partners, was written about in an article recently to point how wrong that is, and it is so very wrong that it shouldn’t be part of a school’s interpretation of transgender as a sexuality. You would think they would be aware of that?

Where trans women are autogynephiliacs there is a cross over with sexuality, but isn’t that an aspect not generally admitted to as part of the belief system? So probably not what a school would want to imply admission of.

@EmpressCixi, you suggested they might just be putting everything together in a list of protected characteristics and making a square peg for a round hole, and that could well be true, but it seems sloppy given their aspirations for rigorous standards. I did not write out the whole list of protected characteristics they had written separately (that came before “sexuality”) in my OP, but it included ‘gender’. So it almost seemed intentional when they re-entered transgender under “sexuality”. ( See screen shot)

What they wrote is based on the Equalities Act (2nd screen shot) but then stirs it a bit I think.

I was interested to look at the school’s Diversity Policy wording having heard there is trans gender ideology going on at the school, and pronoun badges are starting to be worn by staff.

Sorry, people I’ve mentioned, if I have paraphrased you wrongly. I didn’t want to try to go back and forth between the two pages of answers while writing.

Thank you all again. I apologise for my delay in replying.

Is Transgender a sexuality?
Is Transgender a sexuality?
OP posts:
Samoyeddad · 16/12/2021 00:09

Oh I see. That’s really weird as cross dressers are not transgender 🤔

Enough4me · 16/12/2021 00:04

"Paraphilias are overwhelmingly present in males."
We all know this, but everytime stats show this or the high male sexual offence rate to women, we have to be reminded NAMALT and please think of the TW who may be hurt by men, and men are hurt by men you know... we are told to change the subject, be quiet, haven't you said enough already.

CheeseMmmm · 15/12/2021 22:37

Paraphilias are overwhelmingly present in males.

Includes everything from sexual attraction to objects, to flashing, to cross dressing, to voyerism, and etc lists are available.

Often more than one apply to same person.

Iirc cross dressing is very common/ the most common.

Linguini · 15/12/2021 21:47

Likewise you can be heterosexual or homosexual which aren't paraphilias, with a paraphilia for masochism towards the people who you are sexually attracted to.

The paraphilia works alongside the sexual orientation.

Linguini · 15/12/2021 21:44

I meant, you can be a heterosexual or homosexual which aren't paraphilias on their own, with a paraphilia of paedophilia.

scratchedbymycat · 15/12/2021 20:43

*I think when you look at it, a paraphilia is not simply consenting sex between two adults, there needs to be something else involved.

You can be homosexual or heterosexual and not have any paraphilias at all, or you can be homosexual or heterosexual and have any number of paraphilias. Eg, S&M is found in gay couples and straight couples. Paedophiles can be attracted exclusively to either same sex or opposite sex children.*

Isn't paedophilia a paraphilia then?

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2021 20:42

it's been concluded for a very long time that it's not.

1973, removed from DSM.

Linguini · 15/12/2021 20:32

^oh yeah I read "sexuality" as "sexual orientation" 🙄

Linguini · 15/12/2021 20:30

What is a paraphilia, exactly? I did Google, but I'm still not clear on the difference between this and sexuality

Paraphilias are listed in the DSM, but being heterosexual or homosexual is not. I'd simply believe the experts on this.

There have been decades maybe centuries of philosophising on whether being gay is a paraphilia or not, and it's been concluded for a very long time that it's not.

I think when you look at it, a paraphilia is not simply consenting sex between two adults, there needs to be something else involved.

You can be homosexual or heterosexual and not have any paraphilias at all, or you can be homosexual or heterosexual and have any number of paraphilias. Eg, S&M is found in gay couples and straight couples. Paedophiles can be attracted exclusively to either same sex or opposite sex children.

A paraphilia runs alongside someone's sexual orientation, and features arousal involving non human objects, suffering/humiliation, or non-consenting persons.

FrancescaContini · 15/12/2021 20:08

In answer to the OP’s question: no. It’s a belief. A bit like flat earthism or the tooth fairy.

ErrolTheDragon · 15/12/2021 20:01

...sorry, pressed post accidentally...
LGB plus heterosexuality. The entirely commonplace range of whether you're attracted to the same sex and/or thr opposite sex.

Paraphilias, on the other hand, are 'atypical sexual interests'. The first definition I found was A psychosexual disorder in which sexual gratification is obtained through practices or fantasies involving a bizarre, deviant, or highly unusual source of sexual arousal such as an animal or an object.

...so something distinctly different from LGB and H orientations.

ErrolTheDragon · 15/12/2021 19:56

What is a paraphilia, exactly? I did Google, but I'm still not clear on the difference between this and sexuality.

I think the OP probably meant 'sexual orientation' by the term 'sexuality' - the LGB

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2021 19:56

I think it's classed as a disorder in the DSM, scratched. But I have no expertise in this area.

And from wiki it all looks contested and subject to revision: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphilia#cite_note-DSM-5,_intro-2

scratchedbymycat · 15/12/2021 18:35

@ArabellaScott

Some of the labels/terms under the Stonewall umbrella are paraphilias. 'Cross dressing' for example, is not a sexuality or orientation, but a paraphilia.

And there is of course the debate on autogynephilia, which some people claim is part of transgenderism, and some claim not. This is part of Ray Blanchard's teaching on the subject.

So to answer your question, OP, I would say 'sometimes'.

What is a paraphilia, exactly? I did Google, but I'm still not clear on the difference between this and sexuality.
Linguini · 15/12/2021 18:15

Gender identity has nothing to do with one's sexuality. They're different things entirely.

Even if your motivation for transitioning (from M to F) were pure AGP and nothing more, that's a paraphilia and not a sexuality.

Trans and sexuality obviously do cross lines, they can't not.

(So you've changed gender but are still attracted to the same sex of people you were before and so now you'll need to self identify into a different sexual orientation, which in my opinion is a crock, trans people should choose a different word to eg "lesbian" but that's quite a heated topic so...)

Linguini · 15/12/2021 18:09

@DoubleTweenQueen

I can see the LGB Alliance over-shadowing and seeing the demise of SW 🤞. Well, in my more positive moments.
This is so optimistic I love it 😂
ArabellaScott · 15/12/2021 17:39

Sorry, Enough, I am looking at this interesting bit of the floor, over here.

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2021 17:39

Under 'trans', Samoyed.

Enough4me · 15/12/2021 17:26

@ArabellaScott
"Are any other fetishes described as identities?"

Like the massive one starting with an A that leads the way and requires us all to look the other way?

Samoyeddad · 15/12/2021 11:53

Wait is it under C? I only see Cisgender and Coming out listed there

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2021 11:00

Ta, nauticant.

'Trans

An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.'

'Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.'

Crossdresser is the interesting one, there. Is that an identity? It seems to be described on wikipedia as a fetish. Are any other fetishes described as identities?

nauticant · 15/12/2021 10:17

The link most commonly referred to still has crossdresser included:

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/list-lgbtq-terms

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2021 10:11

Oh, thats odd. Stonewall used to include 'cross dresser' in their terms of 'what does trans mean'.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20201214224353/www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20201214224353/www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean

But if you look at that page now it seems to have vanished.

www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean

Are they moving away from supporting cross dressers?