MUST WATCH "David Baddiel: Social, Media, Anger and Us" BBC2

I would also recommend you to watch cool TV series by Netflix called "Clickbait". A very good example of how almost everyone is stuck to their social media nowadays.

And the good documentary called "The Social Dilemma".

I agree that actions have consequences and that it’s easier for people to be heard now when they feel that something/someone crosses the line.

I don’t think that one thing excuses the other when it comes to behaviour on or offline. I don’t think that because someone may have been guilty of bullying another person they somehow deserve to be bullied. I don’t think that because someone has done something racist in the past that it means they don’t deserve protection from racism.

And I'd agree with you absolutely on that point.

But as one contributor to this program said, actions have consequences and (whilst I'm not a fan of trying to re-brand cancel culture as consequence culture), I don't think that if you've behaved badly in the past you should be allowed to white wash that and go on a tv program complaining about behaviour you've previously indulged in without reference to your own poor actions.

To be fair to DB he did do this. Perhaps not as directly as some would like, but he did put it out there. SH did not.

I don't think it's inappropriate to note that.

It’s fair to discuss a specific criticism of a service, though MNHQ don’t have to let you do it on their site (I think that legal threats make threads disappear.)

I don’t think that one thing excuses the other when it comes to behaviour on or offline. I don’t think that because someone may have been guilty of bullying another person they somehow deserve to be bullied. I don’t think that because someone has done something racist in the past that it means they don’t deserve protection from racism.

Of course it's possible to have a very general conversation, but often to do that effectively you need to cite examples.

I don't doubt that some people seem to get obsessed by a particular person and it becomes "sport" to hound them on sites like TL - I can't fathom why that holds an attraction though if I'm honest.

On the other hand sometimes it is important to talk about the actions of a specific person.

I remember one thread in here than got zapped that was imho legitimately questioning the service/business model of one specific influencer.

I won't say who it was (other than to clarify it wasn't SH) but there were a lot of reasonable questions being asked, especially given how much money people had spent and what they got in return.

In this case what had started as a very personal and by all amounts good service, struggled massively when it grew significantly through SM.

Rather than manage that growth well, it sounded as if the quality declined significantly and when questioned, the customer "service" response was to initially block/delete users and then send them very intimidating legal "cease and desist" (and never comment about X again) letters in response to complaints/negative reviews on TrustPilot.

Many posters wanted to people to know not to waste their money on a personal service that was anything but, but alway warn them about posting less than glowing reviews.

Tbh if you behave in this way it deserves to be called out and equally I'd say that's true (though not 42 threads worth) if you go on TV to complain about behaviour you've allegedly also engaged in and failed to acknowledge.

I don’t think SH deserves 41k slating threads obvs but I also think she group-bullied others publicly and doesn’t seem to have held her hands up about this. This would have been the perfect opportunity to say oh actually I did some shitty things online and now I’ve been on the other side and then some etc... but it doesn’t sound like she did this in the program? I would be ashamed if I had behaved the way she did to DOP and the other women whose name escapes me.

Caught up on this today. Found the bit with DB’s daughter very interesting, worrying and sad. The identity bit was quite eye opening and as a mum to 2 DD’s myself, it has made me think a lot about the years to come and the talks I’ll need to have and keep having with them about social media. Grateful to her for speaking out.

The rest of it well, not really sure what to make of it. There seemed to be a bit of a contradiction between DB acknowledging his racist/bullying behaviour in the past but acting all hurt/surprised even, when people do the same back to him. Same with SH too really, typical of self absorbed people who give it out but can’t take it.

It’s pretty easy to talk about influencers as a whole, the ways they earn money and how they can (intentionally or otherwise) mislead people without making it personal. When it’s obviously very personal I don’t think the people posting are looking to change anything. They’re taking someone apart as a group leisure activity. It’s the same stuff that teenage girls do to each other.

As I posted upthread Tattle Life isn't for me (I dipped my toe in and backed away very quickly).

I personally think the way it's set up with thread after thread, documenting/criticising someone's every move, family, work and appearance is a form of bullying.

I also don't think the argument that someone has behaved poorly in the past stands up as a good reason to justify this level of trolling.

That said, I do think there was a failure in the program to address not only past actions of some participants but also the power imbalance between people with a large SM following and those that don't.

As much as I don't like TL I can understand why some people are driven to such forums when they feel that's one of very few places they find they can articulate grievances and decide the trolling aspect of such sites is a price they are happy to pay.

I've lost count of how many threads about Influencers have been taken down on MN.

The vast majority of which I saw made some very valid points and raised legitimate concerns about transparency, quality of services/goods offered and in some cases behaviour.

The fact is the big influencers make a lot of money. They are their own brand/business and people have a right of reply when they feel let down by the service/advice that person is providing.

Rather than stamp down on any criticism by blocking/deleting and driving people to TL to have their voice heard, perhaps a better business model is in order?

Respond to criticism professionally by listening, determining its validity, owning the issue and taking appropriate public action....(as we say a lot on here) sunlight is the best disinfectant.

In summary if your house is damp then perhaps you need to open the windows rather than lock them and then complain you now have a mould problem....

’ Also, they are fucking obsessed on that website, some of the posters literally seem to spend all their time ripping apart every single post and story of whichever thread they are on. There are literally tens of thousands of posts devoted to nothing but slagging off particular individuals, and nothing seems to be off limits, even when it's completely irrelevant to 'holding them to account'.’

They’re on the 42nd serial thread of slagging off Sali Hughes. That’s over 41,000 posts about her.

I very much find this to be the case, and it amuses me when Tattle users are demonised on here.

Would AIBU feature comments such as 'that mole on her top lip gives me the rage' about a woman whose baby died of cancer? Or 'I'm dying to sort out her eyebrows' about a Stage 4 cancer patient? Or 'she looks like she stinks of BO' about any Instagram infiuencer? It would never be allowed.

I agree that Tattle does call out some of the ridiculous tactics used by Instagrammers, but a lot of it goes beyond that and is really disgusting. And none of it gets deleted. Also, they are fucking obsessed on that website, some of the posters literally seem to spend all their time ripping apart every single post and story of whichever thread they are on. There are literally tens of thousands of posts devoted to nothing but slagging off particular individuals, and nothing seems to be off limits, even when it's completely irrelevant to 'holding them to account'.

’Nothing of what I've read on Tattle about Sali Hughes could constitute genuine bullying or harassment.’

Really? I’ve just had a quick Google and it’s pretty much the definition of bullying. Thread after thread dedicated to picking apart every video she posts with special attention paid to her physical appearance.

And btw, here's the interview Baddiel did about his time as a school bully.

Nothing of what I've read on Tattle about Sali Hughes could constitute genuine bullying or harassment. From I what I've seen, it's mostly disgruntled ex fans who are pissed off with her not declaring ads or how much botox she's had and none of the commenters on there deserve the threat of Eric Joyce turning up at their house. Celebs like Sali Hughes are just furious that they can't control the narrative anymore.

So if someone has behaved badly does that mean that it’s acceptable to behave in a similar way towards them?

You've not watched the programme have you?

I haven't, tbh. I started it, but I decided my blood pressure couldn't take it. Plus I don't think I could take Sali Hughes doing her victim act yet again and whinging about 'dragging sites' when a) she's a prolific Tweeter (I think Twitter is much, much worse than Tattle) and b) she's never acknowledged what her own bullying and harassment.

My points still stand. I think there's definitely a conversation to be had about social media etc but David Baddiel was absolutely the wrong person to make this documentary.

Sorry, I don’t even understand what you mean by “she’s a blue tick”.

On twitter you get a 'blue tick' next to your name if you have a large number of followers, are notable in some way, and have submitted ID to to prove that you are who you say you are or represent the company in question.

It was a bit of status symbol for a while.

Watching this now and while the main point is a valid one it is slightly undermined by the fact that the presenter and some of the participants, e.g. Sali Hughes, are people whose own conduct online has been less than whiter than white and it would have been a more powerful programme if they had acknowledged the effect SM has had on their own behaviour towards other rather than speaking purely from the standpoint of being ‘victims’ of other people.

[quote PaulRuddsWife]@FrancescaContini well, that's kind of the point. Hughes is a 'blue tick' and has a massive platform, so it's easy to get her side of the story out there. But when when a small group of women want some right to reply and take it to a forum that Hughes doesn't even have to read if she doesn't want to, they're 'trolls' and they're 'harassing' her. It's bullshit.

And let's not get started on David Baddiel. He's never apologised to a black footballer for mocking him and doing black face and who he bullied week after week on his football show (and that's just for starters. Mic Wright on Twitter has found some very interesting old interviews Baddiel did about bullying a classmate whose mum had died when he was at school).

All I've taken from this is that it's fine to be a troll if you're famous, but the little people need to shut their gobs, even if the criticism is valid. [/quote]
Sorry, I don’t even understand what you mean by “she’s a blue tick”.

And I didn’t know this about DB, either.

@FrancescaContini well, that's kind of the point. Hughes is a 'blue tick' and has a massive platform, so it's easy to get her side of the story out there. But when when a small group of women want some right to reply and take it to a forum that Hughes doesn't even have to read if she doesn't want to, they're 'trolls' and they're 'harassing' her. It's bullshit.

And let's not get started on David Baddiel. He's never apologised to a black footballer for mocking him and doing black face and who he bullied week after week on his football show (and that's just for starters. Mic Wright on Twitter has found some very interesting old interviews Baddiel did about bullying a classmate whose mum had died when he was at school).

All I've taken from this is that it's fine to be a troll if you're famous, but the little people need to shut their gobs, even if the criticism is valid.

The only thing I know about her is that she writes for the Guarniad and I have a book by her. I follow the advice she gives in her book not to keep your best perfume for special occasions but to wear it every day.

But I don’t read gossip sites so have no idea about XYZ.