I feel let down and insulted by the stupidity of the gender worshippers

I suppose it depends on whether you pay attention to cognitive dissonance and ask questions, or whether your loyalty to 'right think' over rides that. A large part of the narrative includes telling people that asking questions is wrong. Debate is wrong. 'Don't debate our existence' is the line. This is nonsense, of course, nobody is debating a person's existence. But it seems to work effectively as a thought-stopping cliche, among others.

I think one real nub of the problem for me is that so, so many people are identifying as trans for complex reasons that are not really to do with being trans (whatever "really trans" means - I don't think there is such a thing as an innate gender identity, but I understand that some people have extreme body dysphoria/long to be the opposite sex and that SRS may be the only thing that helps them, but I think they are rare and even then can regret it).

But we've seen a huge rise in "identifying as trans" and so much of that is...

• Men with fetishes who realise they are being given carte blanche to indulge their fantasies at women's expense
• People with MH issues who are IDing as trans because it gives them attention and power, but really need MH support - I think this is the case in a lot of the alarming videos you see online of aggressive obviously male men demanding to be called ma'am etc and it's one reason I will never mock or sneer at them - I think they generally are not well and I mean that kindly
• Obviously teenagers especially girls who are being lied to that the reason they don't fit in or match a gender stereotype is because "trans", likewise gay kids, kids who are desperate for an identity/tribe, etc.
• people like celebs, influencers etc hopping on bandwagons for publicity and likes, and influencing others to do so.
• obviously, predators and criminals who stand to benefit in whatever way, like getting access to women and children.

It wouldn't matter it was just a fad/trend and was about personal beliefs. The problems arise because it's being taken seriously and being acted on in law, policy and medicine in ways that harm women, kids and those who really need other kinds of support.

But what is TOTALLY insane and causing so many problems, is that this is so obvious and yet genderists and allies insist that anyone who says they are trans is trans and must be treated as what they say they are.

I simply do not understand why that is. Surely if you are a trans activist and want the best for trans people, you would rather save the resources for those who really need them, and you would be opposed to self-ID as it means no one is safe, including trans people themselves, from predators who exploit it. Surely you wouldn't want to your movement to be associated with harming children who are likely to change their minds, so you would want them to take their time to be really sure and not have treatment as minors.

I do not get how anyone can look at the rising figures and the situations involved and really think "oh yes those are all genuine trans people" and governments, institutions etc are going along with that. How can they not see that not being allowed to question a person's "transness" is a total disaster?

One of them in particular, a family member, has always, always sought out identities, labels , diagnoses and special communities to join. Each time it gives them some relief from their depression and low self-esteem because they "are" this new thing and can go on about it and get praise for talking about it. Then it wears off and they're looking for the next thing.

That’s very perceptive, MrsMadderRose. Let’s hope the next thing arrives soon, and is harmless.

the people pushing this know perfectly well that the Maori creation myth isn't true, but they have decided to pretend that it has just as much of a claim to truth as evolution because they think it is politically expedient to do so.

They could teach it, along with Christianity’s creation myths, as our ancestors’ early attempts to understand the world. Perfectly valid and respectful. Instead, as with the genderwoo, they choose to lie to children. Gaslighting children is a disgrace.

I remember when I first got into this whole gender fracas, as Karen of You're Kidding, Right, calls it. It was when a friend of mine told me she thought males were women if they said so. And also, that they suffered disproportionate levels of violence because 25 trans people were killed that year in my country, the US. Even before I availed myself of the Google, I knew that I live in a country with approximately 330 million human beings. And more than guns than people. So any population that has 25 murders or lessthat's unlikely to be a large percentage. And ALSO, just because they were killed, that didn't mean they were killed BECAUSE they were trans. As you and I both know, my suspicions were correct. And that day I also knew something elsenone of those facts would change my friend's mind.

I think it's generous to say let down by own intelligence.

Variously-

It's mostly Twitter with the blocking etc.
Just today I saw so many lies, refusal to even consider may be any point in sex> gender arguments. Misinformation and lies. Swallowed most oppressed, moral panic etc totally. Outrage cuts off brain.

Those who know a lovely transperson / trans relative and react as if personal to n lovely person.

Misogynists.

MRAs

Men who believe they are very clever and right and know better about anything to do with female women/girls than any woman or girl does.

Relating to males, knowing how other males behave to non compliance to masculine norms.
Thinking god that's really difficult and risky (risk from other males).
Need support and help.
No real thought for women/girls as in the end loads of males essentially don't see us as full people, little or no empathy, expect us to help these poor males.

Others as well.

The fact that female people are the biggest danger.
Not the group that are responsible for the vast vast majority of violence etc.

Women who are some combo of feminist, middle aged or older, outspoken. Other things.
Or have s very large platform, respected generally, enough wealth/or position. Etc. Hard to cow. (Jk, Martina not sure if she bowed in the end, etc).

Other sorts of women, all who say sex> gender and no matter how strong when saying anything about that.

Are the devil. Witches. Evil. Powerful. Right up to wanting mass murder...

Yeah that sounds totally likely.

'the people promoting this stuff at a policy level don't, I think, believe it. They do it because they fear the consequences if they don't'

Even those who are keenly supportive reveal that they don't believe it at all.

News outlets, plenty of charities, plenty of commentators etc.

Even when constant TWAW output.
Saying eg people who menstruate.
Pushing non stop.

When they write about eg.
Situation for female people in Afghanistan.
Expressing outrage about attacks by men on ovulators.
Talking about Uighar women in China being held in essentially prison and raped.

It's women. Girls.
Not ovulators.
Not people with vaginas.
Ever that I've seen.

That says it all. It's blatantly hypocritical.
And NONE react with anything except, usually outrage, if pointed out.
Always ignore.

I've asked a few posters on here it's always swerved or ignored.
Apart from one poster who explained that women/ girls in those circs is fine. As not exactly like many female people with internal trans identities. (Whether have the language for that feeling or not).

When I said why on earth would there be different proportions of people with trans internal IDs.

I think that was when the subject was changed.

See also-
Knowing that sexual orientation is a thing.
Knowing that you need a woman. (Not menstruator etc.) A WOMAN to make a baby (through surrogacy).

It's right there, frequently, that for the vast vast majority of really vigorous TWAW.

They either don't believe a word of it.
Or, that woman/girl means female sometimes, and includes males (and excludes a load of non binary vagina people, trans men etc) when they want.

Now words men whatever you want them to mean. That's just no problem?

But yeah it's everywhere, and it says it all.

the people promoting this stuff at a policy level don't, I think, believe it. They do it because they fear the consequences if they don't

Or because of the power trip or because it benefits men.
The other reason for many will be financial gain because of pushing genderbread training etc the trans train is a massive money maker.

The intelligence trap sounds interesting. Thanks for the link and suggestion.

davidrobson.me/the-intelligence-trap/

This book might be of interest.

'We assume that smarter people are less prone to error. But greater education and expertise can often amplify our mistakes while rendering us blind to our biases. This is the ‘intelligence trap’.'

I want to stand up and applaud you.

(I'll satisfy myself with sending this to my feminist, gender critical 75 year old father who is recently estranged from his sister who embodies everything in this paragraph, and who he has challenged repeatedly).

The pretense at individuality and non conformity while they attack anyone who doesnt join the group and conform.
Oh my word, so much this. I’ve felt grumpy about conformity-dressed-up-as-non-conformity since my teens (not gender related but music, dress sense etc) and it is so much a part of this issue for teens now.

Absolutely going to read the intelligence trap too, thank you to the poster who mentioned that - fascinated by the mental gymnastics of this.

More than that @Weebison. The idea of 'passing' is a product of prejudice. I remember how personal ads for men seeking men used to say 'straight-acting', even into the early 90s (the last time I read personal ads in a printed magazine, whenever I've looked since then I've used filtered online sites and don't have that glimpse of other lives). Surely that has stopped now? Do men still talk about 'acting straight'?

So yes, absolutely, of course pointing and laughing at males who present in a femme way (and females who present as delicate looking men) should stop. And there's a fair bit of it on MN. If the males in question weren't aiming to 'pass as women' in women's spaces, but instead were being proactively themselves - that's when liberation will come.

Oh, I remember. I said I particularly disliked the DARVO element of trans activists and the way they accused us of all the things (violence etc) that they engage in themselves. I expect this will go soon too.

I've had a comment deleted. I don't know why because I can't remember what I said. I'm fairly sure it was entirely sensible and moderate, though.

However, Mumsnet seems to think that one should attempt a middle path between sensible, normal people on the one hand and completely fucking insane on the other.

Movements cannot take hold unless they are tapping into existing values and beliefs. This movement has taken hold as it taps into deeply held, for many unconscious ideas, about the inferior value of women. Women's primary is to support others - our rights are only upheld where they do not conflict with anyone else's.

I think you're right.

For me an interesting question is why genderism has become this big hit secular religion. Why are politicians, lawyers, scientists, doctors, so in thrall to it? Why is it so popular to maintain that males can literally become females by virtue of a thought? That is what puzzles me. I don’t see what they get out of it. The most I can summon up is they really do think this is the next giant civil rights battle, the right side of history, the side of the angels, and so simply have to support this poor minority no matter what. But you can support trans people without literally thinking they are exactly the same as females and need to take sex based rights. It’s a puzzle to me

Movements cannot take hold unless they are tapping into existing values and beliefs. This movement has taken hold as it taps into deeply held, for many unconscious ideas, about the inferior value of women. Women's primary is to support others - our rights are only upheld where they do not conflict with anyone else's.

Can I just say how much I love MN for threads like this? So many interesting points of view and posters. A lot to think about.

The whole genderist thing which has popped up in the last few years has made me really humble. I used to smuggly debate creationists and evangelical Christians online, and I thought they were stupid. I know see that anyone, no matter how intelligent or educated, can fall victim to utterly irrational thought processes. It could happen to me. I used to have faith that if you led people through the irrationalities of a belief they would work out the truth for themselves . Well, they have to want to be led and see it first!

For me an interesting question is why genderism has become this big hit secular religion. Why are politicians, lawyers, scientists, doctors, so in thrall to it? Why is it so popular to maintain that males can literally become females by virtue of a thought? That is what puzzles me. I don’t see what they get out of it. The most I can summon up is they really do think this is the next giant civil rights battle, the right side of history, the side of the angels, and so simply have to support this poor minority no matter what. But you can support trans people without literally thinking they are exactly the same as females and need to take sex based rights. It’s a puzzle to me.

It’s only a thread bashing those who cannot argue their point coherently. I’m sure whatever point of view you have, if you argue it well, clearly and rationally you will at the least be listened to! Although by no means agreed with.

Just to confirm I've just had a baby so am fairly sleep deprived and thought this was a thread bashing those who believe there ARE genders. It's triggering me lately, possibly because I'M A WOMAN with FEMALE HORMONES