Trans issues - I need educating!

This is very simple. You have to repeat the mantra TWAW (trans women are women), and that's it. However, be warned, any deviation whatsoever from this holy writ will see you doxxed, cancelled and possibly worse.

I agree with the above suggestions on ',Trans' and 'Material Girls.' Also, whilst it's not focused on the trans debate, try 'Invisible women' - and be prepared to swear a lot. That book sets out just how mysiogynistic this world is - and neatly explains why females are seen a second class or (at best) crap men. Once you see it - from phone design to pill trials - you can't under it..

I completely agree, Monsignor. But I think it’s important that anyone starting to ask questions about this comes to that through their own conclusion.

They are nearly always waffled around - a whole programme about gender id on the radio started it with a TW saying something like 'it's a sense of who you are'. Which makes no sense to me and doesn't tell me what it actually is. Perhaps I don't have a 'sense of who I am', but I feel like I do - it's just got very little to do with whether I know I am somehow a woman inside my body or not.

Another good book is Helen Joyce's 'Trans'.

I don’t know of any regular poster who recommends limiting where and what people read. It seems to be those who seem to believe that MN feminists are a hive mind who do.

I have found it is a projection of their own limitations rather than reality though.

Well I suppose it is a good idea to listen to those who say TWAW

It's often very illuminating . Although you may need a trigger warning if concepts such as "lady brain" have been used to bully you in the past

And also worth listening to TW who say TW are men

Or are you saying a male can be a female? Because we have been assured by even the most vocal trans activists that no one is denying their biology any more (compared to the narrative a couple of years ago).

Nope. I’m on the GC side. I was just putting both sides in a nutshell.

Did you really mean this? How can anyone be female without a female body?

Or are you saying a male can be a female? Because we have been assured by even the most vocal trans activists that no one is denying their biology any more (compared to the narrative a couple of years ago).

Maybe you missed that? Because recently trans people who did deny their sexed bodies to medical staff have suffered terribly. One transman died.

So if you are trying to dismiss gc position, please get it right

I’m not trying to dismiss it, quite the opposite.

I agree with the GC position. I agree that being a woman is governed by having a female body.

I’m simply saying that it’s the over riding view here and that of someone wants to understand the whole debate then they have to look at both sides.

What, specifically, is female about someone if it isn't their body? Personally, I use the word "female" to refer only to biological sex. I can't understand what it might mean to describe anything else as female - could you please clarify what you use it to refer to?

Behaviours? Preferences? Type of brain or personality?

That view point is that being female is governed by your physical body and that everything else is just stereotypes.

I'm dying to hear what else it's governed by. Which zodiac sign Venus is in?

I don't think I agree totally

Being female is woman Yes

Everything else just stereotypes... less so. I don't think that everyone here who is gc will buy that generalisation

Gender dysmorphia - hatred of the transition of the body from girl to woman -is very very real

I I also think that your turn of phrase dismisses how real we think stereotypes are as a mental concept and a tool of oppression

So if you are trying to dismiss gc position, please get it right

Priam... This is not true. At the moment on the first page of this board there is a thread where a transwoman is posting. This person fully believes that transwomen are women and is even now stating that argument. Mumsnet is far from being an echo chamber , however, those who post here have to be willing to have their views challenged and provide evidence for any assertions they make, unlike most other social media forums.

The thing is, op, that you are going to get one viewpoint from MN. That view point is that being female is governed by your physical body and that everything else is just stereotypes.

To understand the trans debate fully you need to take information from a variety of different areas. Including people who believe that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman.

I meant to share this picture - equality vs equity

We could be equal in a society that oppressed women and men equally but still not be liberated.

We can't solve the problem of the objectification of women, for example, by changing society so men are equally objectified, can we?

I'm reminded of this equality vs equity illustration also.

As Magdalen Berns mentions in the video above, it's the feminism that centres women that has actually got shit done for women.

Changing feminism from a movement that is for and by women, to one that's for equality, that's by and for everyone, dilutes feminism (or changes it entirely) so you end up with things like universities killing off their women's studies courses in favour of gender studies, which is happening here and globally.

People are moving away from terms like Violence Against Women and Girls or the more specific, Male Violence Against Women and Girls, in favour of gender neutral terms like Gender Based Violence - which obscures who's doing the violence and to whom.

This has real world consequences. My local specialist and much admired refuge, run by women for women, lost its funding from the council in favour of a non-specialist provider (a housing association) because the HA historically provided services for men and the refuge didn't (although they said they'd be happy to do so).

Making things "equal" can sound good, but if equality is used to obscure class analysis (which it routinely is, these days) then it's women and girls who suffer.

This video cannot be posted enough!!!

It does seem to rebut strawberry’s post in that Strawberry’s feminism is for everyone and that feminist’s emotional, mental and physical labour should be to make the world a better place for everyone (including when it has been shown to jeopardize the very people the feminism movement was started to help- females) in a very clear and concise format.

That women need to mother the world was posited in a UN campaign not so long ago.

It seems quite hard for people to accept that changing movements and language to suit themselves is not accepted by others. Hence posts declaring this board as being ‘anti-trans’ when they clearly are ignoring trans voices that also disagree with them.

You're supposed to read beyond the title/headline.

Am I being unreasonable?

YES

Did you read the actual words typed in the original post?

THAT DOESN'T MATTER

Lol.

OP, I recommend these two links

If ‘White Feminism’ is a Thing, Gender Identity Ideology Epitomizes It
dgrnewsservice.org/civilization/patriarchy/gender/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

A feminist critique of “cisgender” | Liberation Collective
liberationcollective.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/a-feminist-critique-of-cisgender/

On the difference between liberal feminism and actual feminism, here's the brilliant, and much missed, Magdalen Berns.

📖🍷 and hope to see you back on this board.