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Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

519 replies

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 20:06

Great discussion.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

Gender wars: two opposing perspectives on the trans and women’s rights debate
A lawyer and philosopher respond to seven propositions—ranging from single-sex spaces to puberty blockers for children

OP posts:
Leafstamp · 09/12/2021 21:08

@EricCartmansUnderpants

Robins probably embarrassed about it. I would be too if I'd been caught out saying those things.
Very embarrassing.
Leafstamp · 09/12/2021 21:08

Robin says ‘[transwomen]... are accepted into the female diaspora’

Er, actually, no they’re not. Not by a long shot. (Ignoring WTF diaspora is supposed to mean in this context).

Shedmistress · 09/12/2021 21:05

@ErrolTheDragon

'female diaspora'? Confused I assume RMW knows what the word 'diaspora' means; how on Earth is it applicable to females?
Is that a bit like when Posie 'appropriated' the word 'woman'¿
EricCartmansUnderpants · 09/12/2021 21:05

@NotBadConsidering

So can we accuse Robin of untruths here? For example puberty blockers are a “pause”? Robin knows full well that all children progress onto wrong sex hormones because Robin has been told that directly here.
Probably not so much of an accusation but a statement of fact.
ErrolTheDragon · 09/12/2021 21:01

'female diaspora'? Confused I assume RMW knows what the word 'diaspora' means; how on Earth is it applicable to females?

NotBadConsidering · 09/12/2021 21:00

So can we accuse Robin of untruths here? For example puberty blockers are a “pause”? Robin knows full well that all children progress onto wrong sex hormones because Robin has been told that directly here.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/12/2021 21:00

That is an excellent piece and I hope it is widely read. I think RMW deserves credit for stepping out from behind "no debate" and letting their voice be heard. It is so valuable to see both viewpoints laid out so clearly without any of the "noise" that often accompanies these discussions.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 09/12/2021 20:59

Robins probably embarrassed about it. I would be too if I'd been caught out saying those things.

BraveBananaBadge · 09/12/2021 20:57

Haven't read it yet but noted Robin White on Twitter trying to rubbish the feature and accuse Stock of untruths. The same kind of deflection that came from India Willoughby the other day after a discussion -and positive Tweets about the experience from Stock - as well.

Why bother with any of this is if they're only going to resort back to bad faith whinging to the TRA gallery after. One step forward, two steps back and all that.

The piece was commissioned by Sonia Sodha and Alan Rusbridger said interest in it crashed the Prospect website for a while.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 09/12/2021 20:56

@SomepeopleareTERFSgetoverit

“Most of us pass by you unnoticed.” Really, no.
It always strikes me as a bit odd when people say this. I don't know whether the validation they have received from the #bekind gang has made them really believe other people think they pass. Not that I care if they pass or not particularly. People can't help what they look like. It's how they behave that counts. But it's always the ones where it's blindingly obvious who say this.
MistandMud · 09/12/2021 20:50

Robin is the one who can't help sounding male even in print...

SomepeopleareTERFSgetoverit · 09/12/2021 20:48

“Most of us pass by you unnoticed.” Really, no.

OldCrone · 09/12/2021 20:44

@Campervan69

So is Robin saying that a male voice adds gravitas and is more likely to be listened to? So benefits from male privilege here and not prepared to give this up?
Robin says TWAW, but also thinks it's perfectly OK to use the aspects of maleness which Robin retains when Robin can use those to Robin's advantage. Thus showing that TWANW.
EricCartmansUnderpants · 09/12/2021 20:42

Robin highlighting how sex based differences give males advantage while generally arguing that sex isn’t as important as gender. I’m always amazed this person is a barrister.

Taking the advantages of both sexes. The male voice which helps in male career progression, and unfettered access to women's sex segregated spaces. I would have more sympathy for men identifying as woman if they actually made an effort to take on all of the characteristics of females. But holding on to male voices and male genitalia doesn't sound commited to being a woman at all. Just seeking advantage.

Campervan69 · 09/12/2021 20:34

So is Robin saying that a male voice adds gravitas and is more likely to be listened to? So benefits from male privilege here and not prepared to give this up?

Mollyollydolly · 09/12/2021 20:34

Yes that quote stood out to me too.

NotBadConsidering · 09/12/2021 20:32

At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female, I sound male as I have done little to alter my speaking voice, as it is something I rely on in my job as a barrister.

Robin highlighting how sex based differences give males advantage while generally arguing that sex isn’t as important as gender. I’m always amazed this person is a barrister.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 09/12/2021 20:31

The predictability and triteness of one of those sets of responses has neither contributed to the discussion for those who are knowledgeable and it won't be informative for those who are not. And that's despite the over-use of the examples of public loos and tired tropes about chromosome tests or genital inspections.

The poverty of imagination and lack of respect for the importance of this issue and its outcomes for the current and future wellbeing of women is predictable.

334bu · 09/12/2021 20:11

Thank you for link.

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