Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

KimikosNightmare someone has to bring up the ever present spectre of unconscious bias/sexism against women since you seem incapable of recognising it.

You count identifying someone as male as 'othering'?

Why do you think the higher courts have a way to go? Genuine question, who holds more positions of power, men or women? What is the pay differential between men and and women in that context? Why do you think that recognising the structural misogyny is sexist?

I meant in the context of who is sitting on the benches of the higher courts- not who is appearing in the higher courts. Your question has nothing to do with the point I was making.

I think the interpretation put on Robin's comment by posters here is extremely sexist.

You (general you) have basically invented the scenario where you imagine female solicitors, barristers and advocates are overwhelmed by the manly gravitas of manly voices. It's nonsense

Who needs men to put women down when feminist are so happy to do it?

Are you reading something different to everybody else?
Nope, but referring back to my I find it fascinating how everyone interprets things differently comment, I still do and it maybe that's why you can't see that others don't think the same?
Were all reading the same thread, but interpret things differently.
You seem to see commenting on someone's appearance negatively as '' well they're trans and therefore we need to be able to say what we like about voice and looks as because trans and we need to know we're safe!''
I don't.
I see people as people instead of othering or thinking threats round every corner.
We all interpret differently so yeah, maybe that's why it seems people are reading different threads even though it's the same one.

I would like to know whether Robin still thinks the UK should aspire to be more like Malta. I have not commented on Robin's appearance, and I have no interest in doing so at this time.

Further, I would like Robin to ponder whether Malta's self-declaration system for trans people is reflective of a cultural misogyny which means women's very lives are undervalued, much less their opinions on their dignity and comfort.

Is it surprising that a society that needs to make case-by-case decisions on whether women should have the preventative operation to stop them bleeding to death after a rupture, is also happy to let human males award themselves the right to use women's spaces on their own authority?

NoNotMeNoSiree

Are you reading something different to everybody else? Robin said that they don't respect women who question whether or not they pass, when the concept of passing is relentlessly used against women.

The argument being that transwomen pose no risk, because they are already moving freely amongst women all the time and we don't even know.

There's no other way to refute that argument other than challenging the initial premise of appearance.

So if women have a thread picking apart their right to se based protections and telling them they have no right to expect sex segregated supports after a male sexual assault, should we say whatever? Well we can't can we as we're too busy trying to fight for our rights. We are not questionng Robin's voice ffs. We are talking about whether voice is one conduit of male advantage. IMHO and has someone who has been repeatedly talkies over by booming entered men, it is.

I'm not surprised, if I had a thread picking apart my appearance and questioned on it or my voice I'd probably feel like saying whatever as well

What possible implication is to be inferred when males are telling women they don't even know they're there?

I mean the next question is well why the fuck do you think we're objecting then??

Reading the thread above are comments about my appearance and my professionalism, for example, most of which are just plain spiteful. Feminists who have my respect dont deply such tactics.

Oh no! What can we do to earn your respect? Robin, please tell us.

(Oh and on the spotting sex thing - you couldn't maintain that people just don't notice, if you've ever seen a 6-18m baby react to any male person they don't know. Young children, male and female, are hyper-aware of sex; and most go through a stage where they are extremely distrusting or afraid of any male person who isn't a close family member.)

It isn’t enough to parrot “trans people should be allowed to live without discrimination” if, in the next breath, you argue for the removal of protections, exclusion and “othering.” That is transphobic

In what way are women who wish to maintain their own single sex safe spaces arguing for the above? Women are not removing any protections from another group, they are excluding nobody who is entitled to be in their sex based safe spaces and they do not other anyone.

I see that this thread, particularly in the early pages is full of those who wish to judge my appearance. Well, my experience is that I dont get misgendered when I am seen as well as heard, and I will live with that.

Don't mistake not being 'misgendered' for not being correctly sexed. Women know they need to placate males to remain safe. You will not be able to observe the shift that takes place when a male enters the room. But a shift does take place regardless of how feminine presenting the male is, and in a female single sex space that shift is to alertness, anxiety, appeasement...

Regardless of how well you think you 'pass', your argument extends to those who look no different from any other bloke but who simply utter the magic words 'I identify as a woman'.

It's telling that you always complain you're being personally attacked, Robin - yet you don't engage with questions of content; and have a tendency to grandstand on threads by talking about yourself rather than the issues. Then you don't want posters to talk about you (or do you?)

Have you spent any time on any of the other boards to find out the general posting style on MN? If you posted about yourself in relation to any other topic on another board, you'd find posters being a lot more blunt than here. Try a nice parking post on AIBU, or post how much you spend on your Christmas food shop, and just see how spiteful you think we all are then

When she said spite she was clearly talking about people picking apart her appearance, and about her professionalism.

Random n in there for some reason, don't know where that came from

do you honestly think it's spite
Comments about my appearance and professionalism for example
Did you read Robin's post properly?
If so, why are you twisting her words to start going on about challenging in n spaces?!
That's not what she was referring to!

I mean Robin, why do you think women are challenging you? Why do you think they don't want transwomen in their spaces? Do you honestly think it's spite? Is there not even a small part of you that understands that women's experience means they would like an all female space sometimes?

Feminists who have my respect dont deply such tactics.

I'm not sure if you're being disingenuous, or you genuinely don't understand why people question your assertion that no one knows you're trans.

The reason people question it, is because asserting that transwomen are in women's spaces and no one knows is a position that needs challenging.

Women are reluctant to challenge male individuals in person, because experience tells them it's a risky tactic. Or they may be being kind.

There are 6,500 genetic differences between men and women and women are socialised almost as soon as they are aware, to spot them.

It's not spite! It's in response to your assertion that no one knows. Because if women genuinely don't know, aside from the question of potential deceit, they shouldn't be making any kind of objection. Therefore it is refuted. It's not because women are being 'vile'.