Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

@Lovelyricepudding

Your use of the word 'they' rather than 'she' should have made that clear. This is one reason why we need to protect 'they' as usually an indication that you are talking about a group of people rather than a specific person. I though Robin went by 'she' anyway? Is that right? In which case it is really clear that you are not singling her out.

*Oh well , that's me proved wrong. I mean there's research in 1970 says so.

As opposed to actually dealing with this in real life.*

That's hilarious! You really don't understand how research works? It's not as easy as asking people whether something is a problem or not. That's kind of missing the unconscious bit? Before consciousness raising events, if you asked white people if racism was a problem, most would say no. If you ask black people, some would also say no. We internalise societies prejudices. They are most effective when we don't see them. Your own personal reflections on the small number of places you've worked (small compared to the number which are out there), absolutely does not trump research which has been going on SINCE 1970.

I think maybe @ArabellaScott that this research is part of the long line of facts which question the idea that a man can just feel like a woman, or transition to a woman without retaining any male supremacy. So along with the denigration of women and women's concerns, we now have a denigration of any awkward research (i.e. research which shows that to be untrue).

As opposed to actually dealing with this in real life.

And that really isn't how a court or tribunal works but carry on belittling, well I suppose everyone involved.

You imagine female solicitors, barristers and advocates are overwhelmed by the manly gravitas of manly voices. It's nonsense

It's a very well evidenced phenomenon, widely researched and written on, from around - what? - 1970? - onwards.

I don't know what you mean BTW re: who is sitting in the higher courts. I don't work in law but it sounds like you are saying that there are more man in positions of power in that context. Is that right?

Well I am a 6'4" 19 stone rugby player. Broken nose a few years back, squashed ear, bit of a 'resting brute' face. But that's just what's happened in the past, it's superficial, I'd have played things differently, knowing what I do now, it isn't me.

We did some training with a ballerina at the club a few years back. About improving balance and agility. Seemed like a laugh.

Turns out I loved it. The poise, the elegance, the jumps, the artistry. The focus it gives me is amazing, it just takes over and transports me to another world, another way of being me. I'd never seen myself as elegant before but now, when I step into my ballet persona, I do.

When I walk down the street in ballet mode - I'm not talking tutus, that would be ridiculous, a trite pastiche, I'm talking elegance, poise, delicacy, femininity, feeling like a dancer, being a dancer in my head, my body, my movement, my actions, my everything, it's transformational - nobody has ever come up to me and said 'oy mate! you're not a ballet dancer'. Even when I've been in the men's loos, no man has challenged me about being a gender-free ballet dancer in a man's space.

Therefore everybody sees and agrees that I am a ballet dancer. I pass as a ballet dancer.

• there are many, many studies on the perception of differing amount of authority between male and female voices, btw, I just put up a couple of the first google results there.

Also would really still like to hear why my desire for a single sex space is overruled by Robin's desire to use a female space.

On the subject of voice:

Public speaking when pregnant was so difficult, as my diaphragm was constricted by the pressure of all the organs that are displaced by a growing infant and womb. I got breathless and found it v hard to project. My speech rhythm was broken by having to take frequent breath pauses and this interrupted my flow and thought processes, too.

Diastasis recti affects at least one in three women and can persist long after pregnancy. This can have impact on respiratory issues, and voice. This singer details the effect on her during pregnancy:

singingsense.com/2015/04/02/singing-throughout-and-after-pregnancy-part-2/

Post partum, public speaking was also made harder by leaking breasts, postural issues (not to mention broken sleep because of the needs of a feeding infant).

This is on top of the existing fact of a woman's smaller lungs, quieter voice, different vocal chords, etc.

Before we even get to the perception of others, the increased weight, gravitas and authority ascribed to male voices compared to female voices.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10919-019-00307-0

www.nytimes.com/1981/02/02/style/relationships-voice-of-authority-still-male.html

Women face various speech and voice related disadvantages by virtue of our sex.

We are silenced in so many bloody ways. Thank god for Mumsnet.

And you only have to look at the threatening tone of posts about the proposed ‘gender critical day’ to understand why women have been silent for so long.

But yes, if women were allowed to state their stripped down truth without any social embellishments at all, I fully believe that those males would never had been left with the notion that they ‘pass’.

Even with extensive cosmetic surgery and voice training and movement training. There will be something that will give them away after short in-person contact. Hurtful though it may be to acknowledge.

Consent obstained under duress is not consent.

www.inbrief.co.uk/contract-law/duress-undue-influence-in-contracts/

Yes. Women's silence is interpreted as support or acquiescence.

In reality, women are silent because of threat to safety or personal reputation.

Then women's silence is used as evidence that there is no risk to safety or personal reputation.

So long as you stay quiet, nobody gets hurt.

This board is an anon internet forum (for the most part). So women are less at risk, and can state the truth.

This will be painted as being rude/mean/horrible etc.

Because for women to speak on this subject, offer their true feelings and thoughts, without fear or risk, is seen in itself as being unacceptable.

When the UK sports councils released their very good guidelines a major point within them was about how women were afraid to speak up. It was very important that that was publicly and officially acknowledged and it was good of them to do so.

If women are going up to transwomen and pointing out their sex then they wouldn't be claiming no-one can tell, would they?

This is a major part of the issue.

Needmoresleep posted this link on the Lia Thomas thread. ( for reference www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4414643-Penn-s-Lia-Thomas-breaks-200-500-Free-records-in-meet-with-Princeton-Cornell?msgid=113212467#113212467 )

The Mail link.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298137/SECOND-UPenn-swimmer-speaks-against-trans-Lia-Thomas-competing-womens-team-crowd-silent.html

It highlights the conundrum nicely. This male swimmer, Thomas, had said in recent interviews that they are fully supported by the rest of their team.

This week already, two of their team mates have told media that they are angry and certainly do not support this person. And this is just the start of the season. The first two or three weeks in.

This male swimmer is in full belief that they are supported, because the females on the team have been told to STFU! They are so angry, particularly after this male won on the weekend 38 seconds ahead of the female swimmers and laughed they were ‘cruising’ and had more to give. But this entitled male cannot see past their own need of what they wish to see.

It is the same for some males who declare they ‘pass’. It is because they need to think that partly, and partly it is because they have been told by people who love and care about them, or other women who genuinely can’t tell, that they pass, and it is partly because many of those women who notice will have a valid reason for not letting on that they notice.

Who would tell a male they don’t pass unless it become necessary, Ie, in single sex spaces. And then, how many would even allow facial expressions give them away due to fear.

But we will always have posters who declare that they don’t believe other women when they say they would be fearful to let on. Because it is not politically expedient that this is happening.

Exactly NotBad - if we did point it out we’d be being mean so because we don’t point it out, it’s taken to mean we can’t tell

As usual another lose lose situation for women

Yes. Either women are being twattish pointing it out, and transwomen wouldn’t claim “you can’t tell” and would need to acknowledge that everyone can, or women can tell but don’t say anything, and transwomen wrongly take this as evidence that women can’t tell.

I know which option I think is more likely.

However, had it been an option for me not to have endured male puberty, then I would not face this difficulty, which is one reason from personal experience why I support tht being an option for trans young people who are sufficiently mature to take that decsion.

It has been said before, but I will say it again.

A person being ‘mature’ enough to make that decision, is one that is well past puberty. So, your point is misleading.

But obviously, also ignores the plight of young females who have arguably greater health risks through the use of this treatment. It needs to be acknowledged that the posts we do see in wholehearted support of use of these drugs tend to come from those who are males and who have not used them. So it is always based on wishful thinking of what might have been than actual life experience. And continues to ignore the impact on young female bodies.

And it should also be acknowledged that usually those posters may have a higher tendency to use shaming tactics to control discussion amongst women discussing the rights for females and children.

Im still baffled by the idea that TW think that just because women don’t point & go “loooook a man in a dress!!!!!!” that we don’t notice

Exactly, I don't think I have ever mentioned to a man that he's obviously a man. Why would I?