Choreographer Rosie Kay forced to resign from her own company

Personally I have some sympathy with the inappropriate workplace behaviour argument, especially if she was pissed, but I think the fact that the dancers set out in their open letter to emphasize their experience and expertise and age range doesn't chime well with the power differential argument. This is presumably an open progressive workplace what with asking for pronouns proactively, so I would expect people there to be able to cope with robust open debate.

And Catherina do you really think someone talking about the terms of trans ideology and disagreeing with ADULT dinner party guests by using the anatomically correct names for the human genitals is the same thing as sexual harassment?

Are your young adults so unfitted for society that they would be made to feel “unsafe” by the mention of human bodies at the dinner table? Have you brought them up in 1821 by accident?

as the parent of two young adults at the lower end of that range, no, I don't think they were led on.

So you think then that it’s so imperative that a young person that age should save the world from the awful harm that is encountering that their boss holds a different, perfectly legal, opinion to them; that they should ruin the boss and their own career prospects because of it?

Would you be proud of your young adult children if they did that?

have you even read the Medium piece? The dancers in question are between 21 and 40, not really all of them "young people"

Does this not strike you as even worse? Have the younger ones been led on by someone who should know better, do you think? Or are the older ones just going along with the nonsense?

Shouldn’t people age 40 know better than to go along with making these reports, intended to damage the very person giving them a career opportunity —then be surprised that it backfires and the job disappears, along with suddenly realising that they themselves now look bad?

Does that sound like common sense to you?

It still needs a lot of energy and is not entirely conducive to your career to bring a complaint against your boss/line manager/trainer etc.

Do you think young people who genuinely believe they are actually magical unsexed, aka “nonbinary” beings, have this level of common sense?

Blimey! They’d drop dead if they worked in some of the places I’ve worked at! Proper sweary words and insults!

IIRC, one of the complainers said that Ms Kay used the words "penis" and "vagina" which the former felt constituted sexual harassment.

"And it’s your lot who want us all renamed as persons with vaginas/penises, vulva owners and menstruators! And then you want to complain you mustn’t hear words about genitals in company like so many miniature Victorians? We get called person with a vagina when it suits you, but you will gasp and stretch your eyes if vaginas are ever mentioned when you don’t like it?"

This is the stupidity of the whole thing. There's threads on here about parents worried that their children are being taught it's less offensive to use the terms "person with a penis" and "person with a penis" in school, instead of the altogether easier boy and girl - the TRAs are the ones pushing this nonsense. But as soon as someone trying to have a discussion about the nonsense that NB extrapolates too - stating that you either have a penis or a vagina and that denotes your biological sex, well then, they're APPALLING and OBSESSED.

TRAs want it all ways, all of the time.

exactly, so why did she ask to the point that everyone found the energy to write that complaint and get it investigated?
This has been discussed. We don’t know exactly what was said, but quite possibly it was a rhetorical question rather than ‘tell me what genitalia you have!’

exactly, so why did she ask to the point that everyone found the energy to write that complaint and get it investigated?

And you ask this despite knowing full well that women are being called terfs and bigots and transphobes and having police complaints about them and complaints made to their employers and whatever, for just tweeting pictures of suffragette ribbons or saying biological sex exists or all sorts of stuff someone thinks is “terf rhetoric”?

The coy surprised “well she MUST have done something very offensive!” tone is wearing very thin.

Sorry; the quote didn't appear. I was replying to CatherinaJTV's "so why did she ask to the point that everyone found the energy to write that complaint and get it investigated?"

I conclude that CJTV has never had the experience of being part of a group of several people.

The simplest answer (I go with William of Ockham when I can) is that she didn't, but they felt obliged to give more and more upsetting reasons to have got into a state over when they were a] talking about it among themselves afterwards and working each other up and b] put on the spot by adults asking them what exactly they were actually making a fuss about.

This one IIRC:

dancetabs.com/2020/06/men-at-the-barre-inside-the-royal-ballet-bbc-documentary/

Male dancers use a jockstrap under tights, to keep it all together as it were!

(There was actually a Royal Ballet documentary a few years ago where they devoted quite a bit of time to this question, so it’s hardly one that dancers would be blushing and shy about…)

I have a simple factual question to ask: do dancers with male genitals need to wear any sort of protective "box" over them? I would have thought that in a leotard/tights, male genitals or the lack of them would be blindingly obvious to anyone. (Nureyev had a definite bulge.) Or do dancers who wish to pretend to male genitals they don't have wear padded codpieces? What can those with male genitals do if they wish to pretend to female ones?

I doubt that Rosie needed to ask which sort of genitals any of them had, to be honest. They'd done rehearsals with her.

In my experience with TRAs, if you make any reference to biological sex, they screech "You're disgusting! You're obsessed with genitals."

They then blithely refer to us as "people with vaginas" or "cerivx-havers."

So it goes. They are ridiculous people, best ignored.

*when words get reframed as “literal violence”

You are aware of the idea of hypothetical discussion, yes? Rhetorical questions? Did anything in this report convince you that Rosie Kay was literally asking for a discussion or reveal of the interlocutors’ actual genitals?

Sheesh, no wonder when words her reframed as “literal violence” are disingenuous posters seemingly unable to understand the normal rules of discourse.

And it’s your lot who want us all renamed as persons with vaginas/penises, vulva owners and menstruators! And then you want to complain you mustn’t hear words about genitals in company like so many miniature Victorians? We get called person with a vagina when it suits you, but you will gasp and stretch your eyes if vaginas are ever mentioned when you don’t like it?

Absolute hypocrisy.

What I don’t understand about Fanny’s story is why management gave so much time to it.
I assume this is in the overstretched NHS but even if it’s a private hospital you would think they had more important things to worry about!