Janice Turner Interview with Rosie Kay

Quite.

Pronouns in the profile/signature = I am in the Stasi, I have power, I will take any opportunity I can to destroy you.

We're told that pronouns are harmless or a matter of politeness or kindness, but whenever I encounter a pronoun person now I consider myself warned. I find it sinister and chilling. It's not about politeness, it's about a vicious and controlling use of power. These people only destroy, they never build and create, but wrecking things and people gives them pleasure.

Yes, I thought that was a nice pointed dig!

My favourite bit was how none of these spoilt brats had even read Orlando.

My lawyer advised me, ‘You are not going to win. They will find you guilty of transphobia, smear you — and that’s the end of your career.’ But I was just talking about women’s material reality and I am not going to go quietly. I am determined to put my head above the parapet.”

I wonder why the lawyer was so pessimistic that the Forstater ruling would be of no help. Because it was HR rather than an employment tribunal or similar?

Yes odd. But it sounds like they thought it would be a kangaroo court and had no trust in it. There was one investigation which exonerated her and then got complaints. This is the second investigation. (From her crowd funder). The relationship and trust has obviously completely broken down.

There is s bit more detail about the investigations on her crowdfunder if you search for that. Try searching Rosie Kay fighting to protect women's rights and freedom of expression.
There's more detail about what's gone on and what she wants to do.

So the charity doesn't own the IP on any of the shows that Rosie has created? So they won't be able to perform those. What are their assets? Money in the bank I guess.They could hire new choreographers and produce new shows but it would be quite dishonest to continue using her name.

I’d never heard of her (luddite over here when it comes to the arts) but I find it fascinating (troubling?) that even as a gender non-conforming woman and a victim of sexual assault, still her views counted for nothing with those she was offering such an incredible opportunity to.

This link is the trustees, some connected with other organisations,

register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/sector-data/top-10-charities/-/charity-details/5079863/trustees

There have always been vicious little shits in the creative industries but this stuff is a whole new level. It's actually stifling genuinely creative people.

I agree about the NB incoherence. It's a smokescreen for creative banality and dangerous.

Fuck's sake. I need to go and buy wine.

This has made me very, very angry. I work in the Arts, and while the small company that I am part of has no truck with any of this nonsense we can see it lapping around the edges of what we do.

If PM really wonders why more women don’t stand up against this - this is why, they risk losing so much.

Yes, he said Janice was a "honourable exception". I hope he read her column today.

If the company was set up as I think it would have been, she'd be an employee of the company (albeit the highest level employee). It's perfectly possible for a temporary member of the company to use the company policies to raise a grievance (as it should be) which is why this would have gone down an HR route.

So the policy process should have been followed - investigation by the Trustees as Rosie would have been the highest level member of the organisation, evidence gathering, etc. That would not have necessarily found her to be 'guilty' of anything, and if she was, the sanctions could range from a written warning to dismissal. I do wonder why she didn't roll that dice.

But then it could have been set up really badly with terrible Trustees who didn't do it properly, leaving her no option but to resign and go public.

I would hope that Rosie will come through this and find another vehicle for her talents. She may be more wary who she cedes control and employment to in future.
The sheer viciousness and spite of the'wronged' party here is quite breathtaking and the spineless capitulation all round - her board should be ashamed.
In a nutshell how destructive and selfish people can be..

I'd never heard of her, but she sounds amazing.

What gets me is the ingratitude of it. She gave fantastic opportunities to those dancers and they turned on her. Very similar to the over-privileged little twats Watson, Radcliffe et al who would be absolute nobodies without JKR.

This is madness. I’ve worked for two choreographers who are peers of Rosie Kay, one M, one F and this will be potentially terrifying for women, esp those over 40 I would guess, in the sector. Strikes me that the board have panicked about the impact on their own livelihoods (esp if any of them are in HE, which often arts board members are) and thrown Rosie under the bus. The arts are largely in the grip of this at the moment - I work in a different artform now, have declined to add my pronouns to my email etc but not before going through my personal twitter to stop following anyone who would arouse suspicion (I have a separate anonymous account for that now). If PM really wonders why more women don’t stand up against this - this is why, they risk losing so much.

Really not impressed with that lawyer. I hope she gets better legal advice soon!

Shocking piece- Penis and vagina sexual harassment? A male with his p out in a changing room?
Awful story- and I can't believe the lawyer's advice! Maybe the lawyer wasn't confident and afraid? I hope Rosie finds a great lawyer. A win would shine more light on this shit show

It's going to be a schism as they are implacably opposed to eachother's essentialism, philosophical status, and existence. Presumably both will require adherence to such polarised immersive fictions that it's not possible to satisfy them in any mixed gathering (NB and trans being the mix).

Everybody else and everyday discourse/communication will be collateral damage in the fallout from this.

This is a big part of the reason I have absolutely no truck with "non binary". The idea that saying biological sex exists is triggering. It's even more of a threat to women's rights than bog standard transgenderism is, IMO.

Yes I think she should seek other legal opinions, as it sounds like she is doing.

“My lawyer advised me, ‘You are not going to win. They will find you guilty of transphobia, smear you — and that’s the end of your career.’ But I was just talking about women’s material reality and I am not going to go quietly. I am determined to put my head above the parapet.”

I wonder why the lawyer was so pessimistic that the Forstater ruling would be of no help. Because it was HR rather than an employment tribunal or similar?

several male dancers shouted that she was a bigot and a terf.

Of course it was led by the people with no skin in the game.

Why does this always read as same old (internalised) misogyny and just different clothes and justifications?

Spacey, so many #MeToo men are all back in public roles - many of them are denying now that they ever had a problematic pattern of behaviour.

Women are the boy in the crowd trying to alert the rest of the populace and they're being disappeared from public sight and invisibilised as the makers of their own creativity and works. No resentment of 'bad mothers' there at all, definitely not.

What happened to Ms Kay is a travesty of justice.

That's a shocking story. I can't believe they actually claimed the words "penis" and "vagina" are sexual harassment in and of themselves. So when we are addressed as "bodies with vaginas" we can bring a case for mass sexual harassment? When presumably the "non binary" person would agitate for such "inclusive" language. Make it make sense!

I found this really shocking but I wonder if there is some light?

Thankfully, her canny father ensured that she retains all intellectual property rights. So the Rosie Kay Dance Company is left a shell. and the show was cancelled so those virtue warriors are out of a job. A bit of critical thinking would have helped them see the potential flaws in their strategy

Just read this over breakfast and headed over to see if it had been posted. I too will dig for this one! DessertStorm's post has got me fired up 💪