feel like I’m turning into an anti-marriage feminist

I think «protection» on mn (ie women getting married for «protection» is another way of saying marrying for money

Competition for men is what’s behind most female to female bullying. The perceived (and also real) status that marriage gives a woman socially is what drives women to aspire for marriage in the first place.

This describes literally no woman I have ever known.

I agree marriage is flawed and weddings are often full of pomp, but your depiction of women competing against eachother for the manprize is bizarre, and very anti-feminist.

Competition for men? Really op?

As an aside OP, have you never heard of a housewarming party? Literally a celebration when someone buys/rents a house.

Being married doesn't make you better than anyone else.

For some women it gives financial protection they need, especially if they have children, low earnings or are a SAHM.

For me it doesn't protect me financially. I earn more than DH. I haven't changed my name and really it has very little benefit. However it does make things a lot easier for DH and the kids if I died.

Your comments about bridesmaids and best day ever are focused on the wedding, not the whole marriage.

It is still traditonal to become your husband's property as soon as you sign on the dotted line;

In some places, ie under Taliban rule. But not in the UK.

Competition for men is what’s behind most female to female bullying. The perceived (and also real) status that marriage gives a woman socially is what drives women to aspire for marriage in the first place.

Im sorry OP but this reads like the plot of a mindless Regency romance novel...or that Bridgerton show on Netflix.

If you look, you may find that marriage has moved on a bit.

if you think that, more fool you. It is still traditonal to become your husband's property as soon as you sign on the dotted line; hence so many women taking their husbands's name, still, centuries later.

I have to admit that when I read this article, the academic in me said, “That statistic is not true!” but the voice of the single woman said, “That’s right—it’s not true. But it feels true.”

Researchers who are knowledgeable in this area and very familiar with how the data is used in this particular analysis—again not published in a peer-reviewed journal—quickly discredited this finding that single women are healthier and happier. Yet this story quickly went viral, appearing in hundreds of media outlets around the globe.”

“Are Married People Happier?

The cautious answer to this question is, yes: married people do appear to be happier than people who are not married, including people who are never married. And, in fact, contrary to the assertion made in The Guardian, marriage appears to make women happier than men.

But this is a difficult relationship to unpack, and not only because happiness is a hard concept to measure. That really is a small part of the problem since we can ask people subjective questions like “On a scale of one to 10, how satisfied are you with your life right now?”

The larger issue is that people who are happy with their lives are also more likely to get married.

But we can find ways to deal with this problem using data collected from the same individuals over multiple waves that track them from the years before they are married to the years after they are married. Evidence published by my colleague, John Helliwell (and Shawn Grover) in the Journal of Happiness Studies finds that marriage makes people happier and that they continue to be more satisfied years into the marriage.”

“Are Married People Healthier?

Again, here the answer appears to be yes. Married people appear to be healthier and live longer than those who are single, separated, divorced, or widowed. They have better mental health, fewer health conditions, and recover faster from illness.

In the past, studies found that marriage provided more health benefits to men than women, but that effect is disappearing, and more recent studies find pretty similar outcomes for men and women. ”

ifstudies.org/blog/does-marriage-really-make-us-healthier-and-happier

Is there something cultural at play here OP? Especially with the idea that married women "out rank" unmarried?

I know from the experience of a very close Korean friend that she was put through the ringer for not getting married. It reflected on her entire extended family - or so they said. Others from other cultures too.

Marriage, I think, turns women against each other. Everything from weddings (making other women feel bad by not choosing them to be your bridesmaid for some nonsensical reason), to marital life itself is about women competing with each other and using their marital status (i.e. their relationship with a man) to one up another woman.

You do realise you can get married without a wedding? Also unless you are talking post World War where women far out numbered men due to the millions killed on battlefields, I don’t see women “competing” for men. The whole idea that women all want marriage is very old school patriarchal in my opinion.

Married women are seen and treated better than single women societally.
Hah hah hah hah. No we are not. Married women in general are seen as housemaid, sex kitten, nurse and nanny on demand. Those that have weddings, yes they get a few hours to pretend they are a Disney Princess, but that’s not how many marriages actually are. Granted some are fulfilling, equal partnerships, but with 50% ending in divorce at least half are the live in servant type I listed. And that doesn’t even touch on society’s view! There have been numerous occasions where my husband had been deferred to such as negotiating to buy a car, or viewing a house to buy, or even jokes when buying clothes “see you’re off spending all his money wink wink”

Overall I feel like marriage is a tool that brings divide amongst women and the reason why you see so many women aspiring for marriage or refusing to let go of this patriarchal institution is because of the elevated status that marriage gives them over other women. There’s no other patriarchal creation that I can think of that women - including some who call themselves feminists - generally defend so strongly. I believe the status it gives them over other women is the reason why.

Just, no. Being married isn’t a step up in status. Unless you marry a Prince and get to be called Her Royal Highness....

I like civil partnerships. It doesn't mean the white dress, being given away, all the cookie cutter traditions, but you can do whatever you want and still be recognised & protected in law as a true, equal partnership

And to restate - marriage is a choice. It’s not compulsory. There are other lifestyles to pursue.

Refuges are not only for married women.

Marriage doesn't always protect women.

Women don't always give up work to look after kids while their partner or husbands goes from strength to strength.

Wether marriage is a good idea, depends hugely on your personal circumstances. Ita good for some not for others.

Getting married would be huge financial gamble for me. We aren't having kids (I have 2) and me and dp have built a life together. But marriage wouldn't protect me at all.

@NewFem You address other’s comments, but not my questions?

Funny how you ever see a men implying other men are jealous of them for managing to get a woman to marry them.

Ever heard of incels? Their entire (twisted) world view is based on the notion that being non-celibate is an extraordinary social privilege.
So if you think men don't care about being single, you don't get out much...

Now do they care as much about marriage? Probably not. But mostly because they've managed to convinced enough ill-informed women that "common law marriage" is a thing, and cohabiting offers just the same legal protection as being married... except of course it doesn't. Just need to read the Relationships board to see the dire consequences of that state of affairs.

So... shitting on marriage? Sounds pretty anti-feminist to me.

Women who are eschewing marriage are naive at best. It was never about romance or social standing

Women who get married and give up their independence are the naive ones. Correct about it never being about romance, or social standing - it was brought in to stop women from being able to escape with the kids or the contents of the house. Marriage Act 1853. All they were allowed to take were the clothes they stood up in. The need for refuges still today proves that this does not work for many women.

I think marriage is essential because it gives a layer of safety.

Let’s be honest there, we have no idea what the future can hold. A family with two parents means that I t’s easier to weather the ups and downs life throws at you. Like a chronic illness (one that has stopped me from working more than a few hours a week for the last 15 years).

Marriage as a legal document protect women in case of separation.

And it makes (still a bit) things fairer. If you end up splitting up, you still have half of whatever you create TOGETHER. It still recognises that your now not so dear H could carry on with his carrer because you stepped up re parenting etc…
Because it’s not just career breaks that affects women. It’s the wage gap. It’s the time off on ML. It’s the lack of availability to stay later, travel, less opportunities etc…

[quote DaisiesandButtercups]Have a look here for a different perspective

reactionaryfeminist.com/2021/12/08/abolish-big-romance/

I am tending more towards Mary’s ideas on marriage nowadays.

Hook up culture is certainly not a feminist movement. Casual sex turns out to be unfulfilling and dangerous for most women.

And this podcast
The Same Drugs getpodcast.com/uk/podcast/the-same-drugs/danielle-crittenden-frum-on-feminism-marriage-and-gender-roles-in-the-_b309a11dd2[/quote]
@DaisiesandButtercups I had never heard that view before but it fits really well with the way I have analysed things.

I feel that women have lost grounds/safety in the last 20 years. We’ve been asked to live by the same standards than men ( re working p, being financially independent) whilst still being expected to do all the ‘woman’s work’.
All the while, we’ve been told that we need to find The One, still having this idea that somehow the perfect partner exists somewhere.