feel like I’m turning into an anti-marriage feminist

Perhaps we should reframe marriage into a "pre-natal agreement"?
That's what it is, really.

@NewFem - I agree that men and women can come to their own arrangement re:domestic chores or being SAHP.

However certain things are weighed against women biologically. Some women have physical birth injuries or PND which may mean a longer recovery period is required on maternity leave. Some women are in jobs where there are inadequate breast pumping facilities - so face a choice of formula feeding or longer maternity leave. These are not situations that the man taking shared parental leave can equalize. Basically in these situations it is more likely overall for a couple to find it beneficial for the woman to take longer maternity leave than the man (all other things being equal). The longer maternity leave can mean greater financial disadvantage to the woman, so protection in the form of marriage contract can be helpful (though it’s not the only form of protection - eg the couple could agree to save and put aside a certain amount of money in the woman’s name before trying for a child).

I refused to have children before I got married.
I definitely wanted some legal protection before embarking on something which could have left me
significantly financially vulnerable - not just through caring responsibilities, but if I'd suffered a serious birth injury. I'd imagine this is fairly common?

Looking at my own friendship group, people get married to have children. I think children bring the change in social status, not marriage.
And if anything, IMO being young & childless gives women far greater societal value than being a middle aged mum.

As for turning women against each other, I'd say marriage/motherhood has strengthened my friendships through shared experience. I didn't particularly bond with women pre-kids, now I have several groups of female friends.

I can only speak from my own perspective, but your theories are not representative of my experience of marriage in the UK at all.

And I don't recognise this:

"Marriage, I think, turns women against each other. Everything from weddings (making other women feel bad by not choosing them to be your bridesmaid for some nonsensical reason), to marital life itself is about women competing with each other and using their marital status (i.e. their relationship with a man) to one up another woman. Married women are seen and treated better than single women societally. They are showered with gifts for their wedding, for example and everyone must stop and celebrate their special day. When a woman gets married, all other women are expected to uplift her for finding a man in her life. "

At all. What are you talking about!?! Nonsense.

Women get screwed over by marriage - it looks like more stable and secure, so we're more likely to make sacrifices "for the good of the family" (drop our own name, our own job ambitions etc). Except divorce, domestic violence, cheating etc still happen.

There's plenty of evidence marriage is good for men - makes them live longer, increases their earnings etc. Zero that it's good for women.

That's why weddings are a big deal - it sweetens the pill by making the bride a hero for one day.

IMHO.

Get married or don't, your decision, but always stay financially and mentally independent. And keep your name. Because you know who you marry but you never know the person you might divorce one day and the more you believe you're safe - the less safe you actually are.

It’s not about getting married for money or men having more money than women. The reality is that many women do earn less than men. Many of those women will take time off work to raise children, even if it’s just for the first year. During that time, they are likely to earn less and often they will suffer in their careers. In a marriage, they at least have some protections if the relationship doesn’t work out.

I have tried responding in good faith but I must say your posts do come across quite sneery and condescending towards married women even though most of the ones who have replied to you have been perfectly polite.

She was too stupid to realise that just because the hideous and equally thuggish boy she inexplicably was chasing after fancied me and not her, that I wouldn't have touched him with several 10 foot barge poles. Everyone involved was 16.

Whatever form ot takes it is always crap for women.

I think it is a reasonably common trope in films/TV that a woman who gets proposed to by her boyfriend has made it in some way. But I think a lot of that is that finding a partner and commit to a life together is a reasonably common life goal, especially in the movies. Obviously it is not the only goal people have, not least because the day after the honeymoon people would then be at a bit of a loose end!

So I don't think it's a completely ridiculous, but when I think of the real people in my life married and unmarried and single, I don't see a hierarchy. I understand that sometimes relatives can bug single people about whether they have found "the one" yet.

But, I do wonder if this is a perception thing. Before I learned to drive (in my 30s) I had this feeling that I had failed somehow because my older sister had learned when she was 17, so I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder that I wasn't properly an adult yet because I had missed that rite of passage. I thought other people might think less of me or that I would be rubbish at it. But now I can drive, I can see that it is just a skill that I hadn't worked on before for various reasons and it didn't really mark me out as anything but someone who hadn't learned to drive yet.

So I can see how, if you have no intention of marrying or just haven't done it yet, you might feel like you have a neon sign above your head saying "unmarried" like I did with "nondriver" but most people on the other side of that line really don't think about it that much.

If the people around you do think it's some sort of status symbol and treat you poorly then they are weird!

I'm a bit jealous of single friends tbh. Marriages are about much more than the wedding day, and they aren't always easy/fun.

Is society set up for coupledom, certainly things like buying a house are easier with two - though we haven't managed to buy. Hollywood is pretty obsessed by romance etc. I get that as a criticism, if it feel like pressure.

I think whilst like most things male, single men probably do have an easier time of it than single women, especially in modern times. There have been expectations on them too, married men were seen as more stable and trustworthy - whether that was because of homophobia or just generally feeling that men with responsibilities were more responsible than younger men without. NASA's original astronauts back in the Mercury program were family men (one who was separating from his wife felt the need to pretend everything was okay in his marriage to keep his spot in the programme).

I'm not saying that's as common, but it's not unheard of.

And yes, house warming parties are a thing (pre Covid anyway).

Weddings, socially, function as an opportunity for the families to bond and for the couple to feel the wider support network around them. The guests at weddings (especially close relatives) get an oxytocin boost, the same chemistry that helps parents bond with their children.

Wedding gifts were originally about a young couple setting up their first home together, but may seem less meaningful when adults have living independently from their parents, alone or together, beforehand.

Do you think your observations about weddings and marriage apply to same sex relationships?

I've thought this to:
In fact I sometimes wonder if turning women against marriage in the name of feminism is just a way of fucking us over if/when relationships don’t work out and we’re left struggling with the kids and no job and no money and no home. Making us think we’re being independent when actually we’re putting ourselves in quite a precarious position if things don’t work out.

In fact don't we all have friends who have kids yet their partner doesn't "believe" in marriage and usually days or will be fine cause "common law."

I'm only on page two, but this is a very weird and kind of entertaining thread.

There's a strange denial or naivety about human nature in some posts. Heterosexuality and pair bonding are pretty fundamental aspects of the human ape. It predates all the modern spin that surrounds it. Pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood will always have a significant impact on women's lives and they take up huge resources, on an individual as well as collective level. These realities aren't going to disappear any time soon. Things like marriage, weddings, and various traditions and norms have developed over millennia around these constants of humans life.

Irrespective of cultural trappings, children do best when raised by two parents. This should also be seen within the context of a broad, supportive family network.
The isolated nuclear family is more a consequence of unchecked capitalism and globalisation. This negatively impacts women and children. It used to be normal to have interrelated family units living in close proximity to each other. Aunts, uncles, siblings, cousins etc lived in the same neighbourhood or town. Couples knew they could rely on their parents or cousins to look after the children if needed and children grew up with such an extended network. New mothers could turn to their mums or in-laws for advice and help, but it's harder these days when so many families are spread apart, sometimes dispersed across countries and continents.

Most women I know who have children, actually don't like the thought of leaving them with complete strangers. They might do it because they have to, but not because they want to. (and I would say this is a very normal maternal reaction. From an evolutionary perspective, it's 'safer' to leave one's offspring with those who are related to you as they at least have some biological investment to ensure the children are looked after and protected.) Commercial childcare is sort of an inadequate, but necessary fix to a very modern problem.

I support decent, subsidised childcare for those who need them, but I also think it's important to enable families to be able to make the arrangements they prefer - whether that means women preferring to look after their children themselves or broader social policies that makes it easier for people to find decent work and housing that doesn't mean they have to uproot themselves and move away from their familial networks.

Hook up culture seems to be dreadful for both women and children though, so I'm not sure what the alternative is? The acceptance of uncommitted relationships in our culture is contributing to unfulfilling short-term liaisons, anxious children and to child poverty.

Disclaimer: This is my conclusion for the broad class of women and/or children, individual results may vary.

That was not aimed at you LadyFu but the OP

@LadyFuHao

Competition for men? Really op?

Honestly if I needed to "compete' to either get or keep a man thank he probably isn't the right man for me.

Marriage is whatever you want it to be. You don’t have to do it the way other people do it.

I got married at 21 as a bit of joke that became quite serious. In the early years I had quite a panic about the conflict between marriage and feminism and how it might affect my freedom and sense of self as a woman etc. I’m not sure what happened but all that anxiety just sort of faded away over time. I don’t feel limited by it in any way. No more than I would in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. In fact I sometimes wonder if turning women against marriage in the name of feminism is just a way of fucking us over if/when relationships don’t work out and we’re left struggling with the kids and no job and no money and no home. Making us think we’re being independent when actually we’re putting ourselves in quite a precarious position if things don’t work out. At least marriage offers some security in terms of rights, at least in theory.

I totally understand what you’re saying because like I said I used to feel that way too but honestly I don’t regret getting married at all. I also note that many of my most vocal anti-marriage feminist friends ended up getting married themselves after giving me such a hard time about it!

@NewFem I would be really interested if you are able to answer these question:

Do you consider marriage or civil partnership to be redundant?

Do you not think two people committing to each other long-term of any merit?

What are you arguing for, exactly, if you don't agree with marriage? What is it you are aiming for as a successful alternative of living one's life, apart from the usual mix of lifestyles and choices we are free to make for ourselves?

Because those are my thoughts as inspired by your comments, and I suspect I know the answers , although feminism doesn’t really come into it. At all.

In the West - husbands property? I know everything is not perfect but we (society) have come a hell of a distance in the last 100 years. And property we ain't (women).

Not anymore.

It read to me like a rabbit home has been entered and opposing views need to read to gain a little perspective.

If you look at the Relationship Board, its full of unmarried mothers screwed having given up their careers and opportunities for pensions, while the males run the fuck away from their children and any legal responsibility they would have had if they had been married.

Elavated status your arse. Who chooses to get married and who does not? Isn't it just a piece of paper....? No, as it turns out, it's an important legal contact.

A report on the gender pay gap was published recently. I can share the link if anyone wants it. They found that although the gap has narrowed, this is almost entirely due to women becoming more educated. The UK has twice the gender pay gap of countries that report a more equal split of unpaid work in the home.

The personal is political!

Weird thread. I know 2 couples who have lived with their partners for years and then decided to get married. I think it was to do with the legal protections as neither of them were bothered about the social status side but both sets were getting older and had over the years got joint assets. People thought of them no differently after marriage. No lording things over others or making it the most important day.