If a general election was called, who would you vote for?

And it is. From the reason the thread exists which is sex/ gender.

There's a clue to that, the reason for the thread, in the OP.

That it's on the Feminism- sex and gender board is also a bit of a hint.

'I took that to mean you were isolating party politics from feminist issues.'

It's always a risk you'll blunder if you don't read the thread, ignore the context, don't look at other posts of the person you are commenting to/ about.

That you'll end up having to take one line from one post to ',prove' that the person you responded to. That stripped of all context well. You DID say that! See?

No I didn't. You really thought that was the way to go?!

And then chip shoulder. Oh no! I feel so ashamed.

Out of interest though. Chip on shoulder about what, exactly?

@CheeseMmmm

You said

Arguing about party politics is a huge distraction. This is about women and girls, all of us. I took that to mean you were isolating party politics from feminist issues.

You have a real chip on your shoulder.

Oh missed this.

'Who we vote for is almost the only way we can advocate in real terms.'

I like the almost but come off it!
We have to fight and fight for every crumb!

If we sat around voting every 4/5 years in the hope that it would bring real change for women/girls.

Well. We wouldn't get far because we still wouldn't have the vote.

Bit of a problem there...

Who said party politics isn't fundamental to women and girls?

No one. I don't think. Definitely not me anyway.

Why say that? Just agree to disagree fine.
Deciding to round it off with saying well you're wrong (about this thing you never said).
Why?
What's the point?
If you don't want to discuss the things I've actually said. Why make something up and pretend I said it?

Why do so many posters do this? I just don't understand.

GAD because some people are on the political right! Lots in fact.

Arguing about party politics is a huge distraction. This is about women and girls, all of us.

Tories when it comes to women are very different.

They value (at least the ones that aren't JRM etc) standing on your own two feet. Those who are determined to succeed, make money, who are driven, keep at it etc. Old school basic right, low tax, small state. Hard work rewarded, no handouts. That stuff.

Conservative women from what I've seen in my life. Are often outspoken, no nonsense, think twice before pissing me off types.

With the Tories (old school right wing types) they are more interested in the values than who you are. (Yes yes Priti Patel etc I'm talking the general population and MPs who are just standard right views).
So if you are own two feet etc that's more important than sex, religion etc.
The party of choice often for those with small businesses, self employed people.
(Plus of course the very wealthy).

Two female prime ministers Vs labour none. Obvious thing to mention.

Do they care about women? Not especially. Groups getting shit, not interested. Not what they are about at all.

So in the end. My view is. That looking to political parties to act on this issue is zero. They either don't care or will screw us totally.

This is about women and girls. Outside that system. Not about right or left. Zero point looking for help there.

If we want to fight this WE have to do it. Irrespective of differences in politics etc.

That's what I think.

Have you been living under a rock and missed the Boris Johnson School of Clowns & Trickery?

It's not complicated I don't think.

It's all about men wanting stuff.
And about women being expected to quietly accept whatever is asked of them.

For labour -
The problem is they know they are good, and they know they are right.

Especially the men. Well IME loads of labour men. And thinking, I have never had this from labour women I know.

They talklk at you. Don't listen. Take any even mild questioning of anything. Very badly. They are clever and right. Their role is to go on and on at the woman who can't find an excuse to run. Her role is to listen, look very impressed. To feel privileged to hear his wisdom.

And I have said political systems were made by men for men to consider things that are important to men. Historically that's surely undeniable.

Labour no different.
Really came home to me when watched Bob crowe speaking at a conference.
The workers this, protect the workers etc.
It was obvious to me that when he said the workers he was thinking of the working men. And I thought. Ah.

As they are so good and right and caring.
They refuse to consider ever that they might be missing something.
The anti-semetism blind eye for years.
How it was obviously necessary to push women out of the party who questioned, disagreed.
They are obviously right. Always.

And they IME are the worst when it comes to men patronising women. Reacting really badly to her not realising it's not s conversation. It's a self righteous monologue.

On this issue. As ever they firmly believe that they are right and that's that.
And to have women in labour questioning their wisdom?
Totally unacceptable. They are not really left at all. They must go.

Bugger, my quote up there isn't the right para at all - I meant to talk about the restrictions on protesting!

I'm not sure about this Tory-bigot connection. Is that purely on the basis that they are perceived as anti-EU or anti-immigration? Because it isn't as if they don't have MPs from quite a few different backgrounds.

But this:

They are steadily challenging and undermining various structures that exist to call the govt. to account and provide legal checks and balances upon them. From the electoral commission to the parliamentary standards authority.

is worth noting. Without suggesting this is the fault of LP or other liberal parties, a significant reason this sort of measure is getting support in the population is due to idiotic people who believe themselves to be progressive protesting in ways that the public finds problematic.

There was an article recently in a local paper to mine about a similar protest here where a bridge was blocked off during rush hour - many people were very angry. I commented, without saying anything about the actual issue, that this sort of protest had led in the UK to restrictions on protests, and that it might not be a good idea and ultimately harmful. The comments in response were "check your privilege" and that I was a bigot. Nice.

The fact is that in terms of real economic policies, and even authoritarianism, there is little difference between major parties in most western English speaking countries. It's really a choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledee. That being the case, most people are going to vote for someone who does't treat them like a moron, or who doesn't tell them they don't want their vote.

The idea that somehow this is morally preferable to what the Conservatives have to offer is pretty questionable.

'What women have done - artists, doctors, pioneers, philosophers, scientists, sportswomen, teachers, writers - and what they will do'...

And often erased from history, characterised in ways that are not factual, ignored, overlooked.

There's that saying isn't there, history is written by the victors.

And when it comes to women and girls. When have we been the ones writing history?

Women and girls all over the world endure all sorts of shit and have for at least millennia.

Shit that is BECAUSE they are female in societies that are patriarchal, misogynist, sexist.

Very few women/ girls in UK have zero things happen or be done to them, just because they're female.

From the subtle, usually not recognised, to the worst things imaginable.

I get you totally Wagner.

Be proud of who you are is what I'm trying to say

Enduring female.
See, I just don't get that.
I find it sad that people would find being female an endurance.

It's a nightmare. No one represents my beliefs.
In my bones I'm a socialist but I'm also a woman, old-school type, born female and enduring 'female' all my life.
What women have done - artists, doctors, pioneers, philosophers, scientists, sportswomen, teachers, writers - and what they will do: mindboggling and humbling, and please god if there is a god, let them continue to do it and let them be called women.

And I don't think you've responded re UK is made of 4 countries, and is not one island.

I really think you need to address that, it's just not ok.

'I understand I'm not in the political majority here, and my views probably stand out a bit,'

How do you know? I can't remember the whole thread but I'm fairly sure only a few posters have said who they will vote for.

Plenty have said they will spoil ballot,/ can't vote for anyone etc.

For me your posts stand out not for the political views you express but how you express them.

I mean saying ooh reform what about them? That was pointed, at who, just any and all other posters on thread? And it was unwarranted. And tbh just a nasty thing to post.

'I specifically didn't call all the people (or even some of the people) who have voted Tory bigots. What I said was that we're being governed by bigots'.

That's pretty wriggly.
Anyone who voted for them at last election- and they got a landslide win,- they knew what they were getting.
Bozza, JRM, Cummings. I mean it's a few years back. I CBA to dig but it was hardly secret what they were like.
So. They voted for bigots. Your description. You don't accept that very strongly implies those who voted for them are as well, or at least don't mind about that?

@CheeseMmmm

I take your point about getting off the track of voting and women’s rights particularly, and I do tend to get carried away with this stuff, so I’ll drop it there and move on.

To answer the question, I don’t have a damn clue who I’ll vote for!

@ArabellaScott

I think you're mixing some tendencies of neo-liberal/late capitalist societies all up and blaming them on the Tories. I do share concerns about civil liberties and agree they need to be rigorously defended. If only we had an organisation like Amnesty or Liberty who were still actually clear-headed enough to tackle them instead of spending time telling women they are second class citizens with no right to complain.

There's the weird imagined mutual exclusivity again. Even if we accept for simplicity the way you've phrased the last part: what makes you think Amnesty are not capable of doing both those things at once? (when they quite clearly do).

@CheeseMmmm - a lot to unpick there. In no particular order:

Yes I'm from the UK, but have travelled a lot and lived in other countries, and feel very out of step with the way British social and political culture is going (if that wasn't obvious! ).

I specifically didn't call all the people (or even some of the people) who have voted Tory bigots. What I said was that we're being governed by bigots - ie the tendency in the Tory party itself that is in the ascendant. I understand that people of many kinds vote for it out of various different motivations.

Although to be really clear, I'm not sure how strongly bigotry actually does figure in what the Tories are about (whereas it's more obviously a factor for Farage and the Brexit party / Reform UK). I think people like Johnson are more pragmatic than that - he worked out that he can get power by appealing to bigotry and by cooperating with bigots, but I'm not sure he's actually motivated by bigotry. He's probably just motivated by power.

I understand I'm not in the political majority here, and my views probably stand out a bit, but I suspect you might be reading what I say and jumping to conclusions based on some current trends in politics (eg middle class lefties thinking all Tories are racist). If you're going to take issue with something I've said I'd just politely ask you to check that it's what I actually said.

@CheeseMmmm

*Given that, I don't understand why you are so totally pissed off and confused and feel betrayed if any/ many of those women vote Tory."

We don't need to keep flogging this horse, but just to be clear if I haven't been already: I was only making the point that there is a fundamental difference, of kind, between voting for a party that someone else's values happen to disagree with, and voting for a party that is undermining or threatening the very process of voting and democracy itself.

You can argue (as some have) that I'm exaggerating and they're not really doing that. I guess we'll see (as they're almost certain to win). But that was all I meant.

@KimikosNightmare

Your post is ridiculous. And insulting. And ignorant.

Who was it insulting towards?

[quote Fifteentoes]@CheeseMmmm - they're certainly not a viable choice for me. But I'm not advocating voting ONLY on the basis of trans rights vs womens' rights and ignoring all other concerns.

Various posters on this thread have said (words to effect that) they don't care about anything that's wrong with the Tories on any other issue. They're the only party with any semblance of sanity regarding womens' sex-based rights, so they will vote for them.

Now, the Tories are not that distinct from other parties on that issue. A bit more "traditional", but it seems to vary a lot from one MP to another. I was just curious - if people could find a party that really, definitely, drew the line against wokedom, identity politics and trans rights: would they take the same attitude of voting for it regardless of what its other policies are.

If not, why not?[/quote]
And many, like me, have said we're completely stuck. My boys are disabled so tory would never be a comfortable vote but nor is anyone else, at the moment.