BBC 100 Women List - Gender is contentious

Vera Wang too, though to be fair, it might have been the combo with the wafty dresses...

I'm older, and, a woman. Deary me

Oh I see there's a response on Site Stuff.

It's really helpful. Cleared that matter up. Cheers.

Bumping. I'm wearing men's trousers and socks as I type this,so hopefully that will render me unfeminine enough for my comment to not be deleted.

It would be really useful if we knew what we can and can’t discuss.

I'd like to know this too. I fail to see what there could be that we can't discuss about this. Perhaps talking about individuals specifically, that's maybe understandable. But to discuss generally why people have taken issue with the BBCs decision? It doesn't seem at all fair to silence that discussion.

I thought we were all banished to the naughty corner to be able to have these discussions freely. Wasn't that the point?

In any case, I'm sure there have been many threads in the past on FWR discussing women's competitions and award shortlists in which transwomen were included. What's different now?

Did someone turn the heat on for MNHQ?

James Kirkup is always a good read

Oh hello, thread still going!

Or should older women be silent, kniow their place and not speak up?

I’d better really be quiet then as I’m approaching seventy. Poor old me.

Wow. Up for three whole hours! Blimey, the Monitors must have been distracted by stuff to fulminate about on Twatter. (Richard Dawkins, maybe?)

(Though, Vera Wang? Of falling models in impossible heels fame? Really?)

I think the designer was Vivienne Westwood rather than Vera Wang.

Well done op. This thread has been up for 3 hours now.

It would be really useful if we knew what we can and can’t discuss.

Something similar was discussed a 3 years ago (Sept 2018) and we definitely were allowed to express ourselves more freely. Top 100 female executives.

Bump

By the way, Arabella, it's been lovely seeing all your posts on here. Sadly, I suspect there are a few people who may not like you very much. I wonder who they might be? And how many of us they have forced to leave or namechange or otherwise be less effective in our posting?

I also wonder why on earth those reporting would want to get rid of knowledgeable posters, who raise issues about safeguarding and the rights of women and children (especially girls). It's almost as though they have some sort of agenda that we cannot understand. Bewildering the whole thing .

It's been nice knowing (most of) you.

“The point is that by including transwomen on a list of women, the BBC is taking sides in a contested issue. Because not everyone accepts that people who are born male can become women. Some people argue that the male biology and male socialisation which — by definition — transwomen start their lives with mean they cannot ever truly belong in the category of women.“

Thanks for the article. I do like James Kirkup's measured way with words although his very understated ''Not everyone accepts that people who are born male can become women" I think is more likely in reality to be 'very few people accept' that people who are born male can become women in the way that we accept that everyone's mum is a woman.

Can we ever undo (fe)male biology and (fe)male socialisation?? By what mechanism could that occur?

The BBC list is full of firsts. First female pilot, first female prime minister of Samoa, first African female moto cross rider etc And I was glad to see the prominence given to Afghan women. Genuinely interesting to read about them. (Though, Vera Wang? Of falling models in impossible heels fame? Really?)

I was reading earlier today about the membership of the Académie Française, the body charged with protecting the French language. Founded in 1635 by Cardinal Richelieu, a total of 732 members, known as “Immortals,” have been elected over the centuries. Only nine have been women, the first elected less than 40 years ago. Nothing caused by a disparity in physical strength - just pure sexism. There is still such a long way to go before women have full social equality with men.

3.5 billion women on the planet, many of whom, particularly those in Afghanistan, have experienced brutal sexism throughout their lives on account of them being female - and the BBC 'can't' find a full 100 to highlight.

We live in a deeply sexist world and the BBC list just contributes to and reinforces that, when woman becomes an identity label rather than biological reality. It's infuriating...

Oh dear, Arabella . You are now 100% responsible for the deletion of the entire thread.

Us wimminz (doddery or otherwise) should learn our place and STFU and whatever.

So 1 in 50 of the 100 women were born and raised male? What percentage of the population are transgender?

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

The list was created to celebrate women.

[quote Clymene]@FuckeryOmbudsman - I think you've mislaid your irony detector. [/quote]
Thank you.

@FuckeryOmbudsman - I think you've mislaid your irony detector.

Excellent 97 women list, BBC

Yeah the site stuff one is pretty fiesty. I'm basically furious and gone a little mad over there.

I know what I want to say but I really don't want to be responsible for the thread being deleted. On the other hand what is the point of a thread where one side of the debate can't say what they want to say?

Is it really OK take the piss out of those who comment on lazy speech habits which serve only to be dismissive of older people, and in thus case specifically older women?

Or should older women be silent, kniow their place and not speak up?

The BBC's list of 'women' certainly does bring all the monitors to the yard.

I can't remember such egregious use of the report button in ages.

I'm not sure if James's penis or the fact he's writing in a respected national journal will save him from the deletion hammer. I guess time will tell.