Zara - male bodies in female changing room

For that to happen banned conversations about how AGP exists need to be allowed without deletions because it either offends or suggests that transwomen are all perverts. Merely acknowledging its existence does not say this. We know that sex offenders are more likely to be men and we are allowed to say that though.

All men that use women's changing rooms are not the men that women should be sharing with.
If they have AGP, then it certainly should be discussed in this context at the very minimum. If this platform does not allow this discussion about AGP to help people understand and to keep women safe, then why? This is Mumsnet. Obviously not everyone here is female, or a mum. But I would think is a site set up mainly for women and mums. And women need to be able to discuss. Its starting to look like the online equivalent of the women's changing rooms.

Also I wouldn't write a public article complaining about individuals without knowing the full story.

She's not complaining about individuals - notice how they aren't named? She's criticising Zara's policy. It's not like two different 6ft bodies with penises would have been magically better. Their identities are irrelevant.

The context here is how transwomen in prison are disportionately sex offenders compared with the general prison population. This is a problem.

Unless we can be honest and transparent about there being a pattern that raises safeguarding questions and how that mean we action to protect woman and those transwomen who aren't an issue there is a problem.

And this is it. If you are an adult who runs a children's group there are certain situations you don't put yourself in - being allowed to alone with a child in certain settings for example. This is to protect your own interests as well as safeguarding children.

Realistically transwomen need facilities that are appropriate to them, protect women and protect themselves both physically and from finding themselves in a questionable situation.

What gets me here is the number of transwomen who must know that their presence upsets and might lead to them being accused of perving. And they still insist that their right to be there is the priority. There isn't a willingness to use alternative facilities even when available by some.

What is this revealling?

This is why free speech members.

We need to get to the bottom of issues and find solutions which are workable and in everyones best interests. Not just the shouty male ones.

There is no "full story" other than the one that male people should not be waltzing into female changing rooms.

don't assume men are out to attack but I just wouldn't have thought to at the time.

The men who go into women's changing rooms are enjoying being there, the enjoyment heightened with women unable and afraid to say no. Why would any woman be happy with that?

Also I wouldn't write a public article complaining about individuals without knowing the full story

The full story is that two men were in the women's changing room whilst a woman was in there half dressed. She did not agree or consent. She believed the changing room was as it advertised itself as, a woman's changing room.
That is all you need to know.

Enough with the woman feelings. They are men.

OK

So after she was dressed, she should have found them and asked them:

Editor for Mail: Excuse me? I notice that you are two males standing with me in between you talking over the top of me while I am here in my bra. Could you please tell me why you think that this female changing room is appropriate for you?

Also Editor: Could you please also tell me why you think it is appropriate behaviour to talk over the top of me while you can see I am very uncomfortable standing here with you? Please tell me why you did not move away as soon as you saw I was here in my bra?

And she should have in no way used this as an example to highlight the situation. She should have spoken only in generalised terms and when activists told her that she was simply lying or making up a story, she should have just taken it all on board.

Because NO male should ever be made to feel like their sense of entitlement to be in the female changing room is being challenged. Or call out (anonymously or otherwise) for their behaviour.

Why?

I don't assume men are out to attack

You keep saying this.

It's not just about fear of being attacked.

It's also about wanting respite from the male gaze

Being a female in society can be exhausting especially when younger.

Constantly policed, appraised, accosted.

It's very tiring

We just want somewhere where our guard doesn't have to be up all the time. Where we can relax jut a teensy bit

I know my lovely husband would never want to make a woman uncomfortable but there are too many men who actively get off on demanding our attention and imposing their presence on us

We just want to get changed in peace.

Please men stop hounding us, hunting us down and forcing us to centre your needs

What's to know

They were male and shouldn't have been there.

What's so difficult to understand

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

Or she could have written an article highlighting problems with changing rooms without blaming individuals. Ie challenging shops etc to do better and be more inclusive. And I agree I wouldn't have approached customers in that way either although I don't assume men are out to attack but I just wouldn't have thought to at the time. Also I wouldn't write a public article complaining about individuals without knowing the full story.

‘Excuse me, this is the ladies...’

Yes how will that go down...

Are you talking to me?
I’m allowed here BY LAW
How dare you! I am a woman!!!
Bigot! Transphobe! I’m being attacked!
I feel safe here
It says I can use whichever room I feel comfortable
Shut the *** up birch and etc etc etc

Women will be told to shut up.

did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

How would that conversation even go?

Editor for Mail: Excuse me? I notice that you are two males standing with me in between you talking over the top of me while I am here in my bra. Could you please tell me why you think that this female changing room is appropriate for you?

Also Editor: Could you please also tell me why you think it is appropriate behaviour to talk over the top of me while you can see I am very uncomfortable standing here with you? Please tell me why you did not move away as soon as you saw I was here in my bra?

I am quite sure being a woman of words that she would be very polite and articulate despite being incredibly uncomfortable. Remember, she had already been uncomfortable because she asked staff members to confirm it was 'female' only before going back in.

And really. You are right pp. Women should always ask for clarification. Just like I am sure those males asked for clarification and took notice of the answer that the changing room was females only. Oh wait...

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

It's a newspaper article, not a research paper.

No one ever talks about rushing into the female spaces to speak to the people involved and find out what is most appropriate for them. In fact arguments would be lined up in advance (as they have been on this thread) as to why anything those female people say is irrelevant and no excuse to say no to or inconvenience a male anyway.

Speaks bloody volumes.

Men can just do.
Women have to justify.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

Do you honestly not get the sexism in this? The codependency?

No. Women are not everyone's mum. It's not up to women to immediately take responsibility for people born male, worry about who they feel they are and what they feel they need and whether their needs are being met properly -

female spaces are for females, who have all these needs too .

People born male are not more important or valuable than someone born biologically female at birth. Being born female does not make you every male person's mum. There are many solutions for these male people that meet their needs without trampling over females in the process, and respecting both groups equally.

You'll find that most male people would much, much rather go for the trampling based options, but again: sexism and expected codependency is a really, really big problem for those born female.

Which makes it all rather silly when the whole argument for male people in female spaces is that sex isn't really a thing and no one knows what sex anyone is. (Until deciding who matters and who is worthless/beneath consideration, then apparently it's easy!)

but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

The woman's changing room is never going to be the most appropriate option for men.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

Its irrelevant

Men's feelings do not trump women's right to safety, dignity and privacy nor their religious beliefs in many cases.

HTH.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

There IS no justifiable reason for men to ride roughshod over women's boundaries. And I honestly cannot understand the mindset that truly believes that such a thing could be framed as 'appropriate'.

Unless, of course, you mean as a verb.

appropriate
adjective
/əˈprəʊprɪət/
suitable or proper in the circumstances.
"this isn't the appropriate time or place"

verb
/əˈprəʊprɪeɪt/
1.
take (something) for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission.

That has been proposed time and time again. Transwomen will use women's private spaces because it gives them validation. They won't use mixed gender because it doesn't

I know. Which is why the law needs to be applied and enforced. Because otherwise these men will carry on doing this. And the reason it doesn't get applied because those in positions of policy power are choosing to ignore the equality act and offer women up, without their consent, to men. I suppose change is happening bit by bit. But this should never have been able to happen in the first place. Complacent population I suppose. Myself included. I didn't know of the extent to which this is happening.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

Who cares? They're men, and they should be in the men's changing rooms. I don't care what their sob story is or their personal journey or blah-fucking-blah. Just get in the men's changing rooms.

I often to be always mistaken for a bloke in my early twenties - cropped hair, no make up, wearing jeans and work boots, out drinking pints with an otherwise all male group.

Funnily enough, I never felt the need to cry and wrote angry letters demanding apologies.

Yup that the one.

Me (mid teens) circa 1986 in Glasgow health food store
Little old lady ‘Scuse me son, where’s the (whatever, can’t remember)’
Me (laughing) - ‘I’m a girl!’
Her - ‘eeeee - so ye ur’ hahahahha, he just cannae tell these days can he?’
Me - ‘nope! Here’s your (whatever). Do you need anything else?’
Her - ‘no thanks hen...’

So mistaken for a boy AND someone who worked in the store.