Zara - male bodies in female changing room

Until (if) things are changed.

Why was and is the default to change how single sex spaces work? Have worked for yonks, were accepted by society as existing for a good reason, and violation was a total societal no-no.

When surely the obvious natural automatic thing to happen was, given the long-standing, obvious need and desire for how things were, and not change anything until the needs, risks, options etc were pinned down and everyone thought yes fine?

In short. Why in a short space of time were all women's long-standing single sex things opened up to males on the basis that they might prefer to use them due to how they feel.

When it was so obviously a massive change that obviously would not be supported by most of the population INCLUDING MEN.

So fight for change. So everyone is comfy.

Very hard to get this sort of change.

And in reality 3rd spaces are seen as not a good option. This definitely seems to be the majority view I have seen amongst trans orgs, individuals, allies. The reason is it's outing, othering. Upsetting as means separation from other women and girls. That's the general view.

The argument was safety going back a while. Now it's about acceptance rather than othering. Generally compared to segregation in USA in past.

So that's out. Any other ideas?

Just to follow on from Datun's last post - There have been so many threads over the time I've frequented this board where someone new to the debate innocently says 'but wouldn't 3rd spaces meet the needs of everyone? Then people have lots of options', the regular posters say 'that would be ideal and would be good for other groups of people as well' and a TRA always, always pops up to say 'transphobes!!! That's othering!!! How dare you police these spaces!!! They just want to pee!!!'

TRA's aren't interested in a solution. If they were, Stonewall would be campaigning for 3rd spaces. They're not because it's about taking over single sex spaces and telling women to suck it up and get on with it. It's the beginning of the return of the urinary leash.

And oh, the tiresome 'genital inspection' comments. If I never hear again 'are you suggesting genital inspections at the entrances to toilets? You're obsessed with what's between people's legs!!', it will be too soon.

All I'm saying is to me this highlighted a need to change things so everyone can feel safe.

So what happens until these safe third spaces are available? Do you think it is acceptable for male people to go into female changing rooms?

Men's changing is generally

Usually/ often hardly anyone in there.
Often proper doors as opposed to flimsy curtains.
I would guess similar behaviour to men's bogs. No eye contact, pretend they not there.
Men in situations where only men there and feel vulnerable/ embarrassed.
Vv wanting privacy and vv careful to respect privacy of others.

Men and I've asked a few blokes did not have communal changing in shops. The ones I asked were shocked we did sometimes they looked flabbergasted. Just unheard of!

If I disappear altogether, it won’t be me flouncing

Odd that my comment of 21:33 has been deleted.

Any info, Mumsnet?

What's all this rubbish about men being 'frightened' of being in spaces allocated for men? When was the last time any of us heard of any male, however identifying, being beaten up (in the UK) in men's loos or changing rooms? And Zara, FFS!

If it happens, it's very rare. Whereas women feeling invaded, threatened, colonised, you name it, by men where we don't expect to find them ... that's guaranteed.

'but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?'

Of course she fucking didn't! Very very few women (girls) would quiz two males in those circs! Don't you know ANYTHING about society, men, women etc?

And anyway. Why? They were allowed to be there. Plus even asking the question is MASSIVE no-no we're constantly informed. Transphobic, causes upset, unfair, body policing etc.

Do you REALLY not know why women and girls usually think twice, 3 times, 4. Consider all sorts of factors. When considering challenging men? Even one man? And even when something outrageous is happening? How likely to listen let alone do anything other than ignore or laugh or say fuck off and carry on/ how likely to kick off/ are other people about in case goes bad etc etc.

The constant feigned or somehow (!) genuine total ignorance as to real life on all this stuff. The refusal to acknowledge let alone customer for 1 sec they may have a point. Rather than making up scaremongering lies.

Might as well be a being neon sign saying.

Don't give a toss about women and girls. Do as you're told FFS and stop making a fuss it's just irritating.

Also few posts on taking money elsewhere.

Yes in theory.

In practice what will happen as becomes more known it can happen is stuff like-

Loads of women buy, try at home, return. (much more effort time etc).

• Women start shopping in pairs more with one positioned outside friends cubicle, then swap so other can try.

Anyone who says that's ludicrous. Is somehow unaware that having a friend/ mum etc outside holding curtain so not gappy is v common. Especially combo female child changing esp teens. Loads girls (and many boys) become painfully shy about their bodies when developing and for girls mum holding the curtain and promising not to move is just a normal thing.

• buying from internet. Again just not the same as trying in store. Doesn't fit, isn't cut right etc. Return wait for delivery different size etc. Yes we're getting used to it but it's still not great.

• Girls must keep eye out for each other/ be aware generally, keep look out for phones sneaking under any gaps/ what to do if male comes in, possibly don't use full stop bring home. For teens shopping that's removing most of the reason for going with a friend!

As ever, women and girls will gradually start to change habits, be more cautious. And that will be it.

Reading article iirc men's clothes changing upstairs.

So say these 2 male presenting males were buying some clothes for a fancy dress party, stag night or similar.

The men's changing is upstairs. They are shopping downstairs and may want to try, go get different size or something different etc.

Tronking up and down the stairs is a total pita.

They know it's ok for males to use women's now in general and if anyone says anything they can say magic words. And not only will that mean they can do it, they can also say that it's wrong to say no and they could get in trouble etc.

As a female woman who is getting on a bit I GUARANTEE that some men will simply think. This much more convenient, it's allowed, why the hell not? Cubicles, won't be long, not like we're going to do anything dodgy.

I find the total refusal to acknowledge how given the millions of men in the country, given the green light some of those millions IE that's a lot of men. Will see no sense in putting themselves out when something better for them.

And that's before getting anywhere near the dodgy blokes side of it.

Can't we just have penis and vagina rooms? Toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards...everywhere we need seperate spaces. Just check your genitals before you enter and be aware you can be checked.

Because transgender and non binary people don't have a place to try clothes on. Everyone should have the right to safe places.

By Jove I think you've got it! A third space!

Except there isn't a single transgender, non-binary person or self entitled man who wants that.

It would be a piece of piss, wouldn't it. An extra space.

But it doesn't happen, they don't want it, no one is campaigning for it, because it's not about the space.

It's about the women in the space.

Transmen aren't clamouring to get into men's changing rooms or loos or prisons, or beating them at sport. They're not making the staff and patients on men only wards feel uncomfortable.

That's not happening. Because it's not about 'identity'.

It's about women, and men wanting to be included in their spaces for validation and/or just to dominate. Which is the same thing.

Do you seriously think there's not a woman here who hasn't suggested a third space? Over and over. It's rejected out of hand.

It's about the women and access to them.

Loads of ordinary bloke men have way less interest in abiding by boundaries in general, if it suits them not to.

Example.
Last two jobs in fancy offices, 10 years overall.
Mention fancy because each floor ample toilet provision for men and for women on each floor. Even in ladies having to wait v rare and only at popular time to leave for the day.

Mens urinals cubicles would put money on queuing unheard of.

Each floor accessible toilet as well. Both places next to ladies.

Very occasionally when leaving ladies would see woman come out. Like rare.

OFTEN would pass as man was coming out. Said man would often look sheepish. I noticed and so wondered.

Anyway turned out loads of men preferred the accessible one for crapping. And most women are aware of the time consuming nature of defecating when male. Namalt obv before derail. But it's a well known (often frustrating) thing.

I seem to remember bizarrely that it came up in conversation with the men I sat with. And one said well it's more private and comfy. And I said, but it's for people who need it, you have gents.

And he said hoho you're telling me you don't use accessible/ disabled only toilets if handy? I said... No. He said. I don't believe you. Why the hell not?

This is not uncommon. Have a more extreme story if interested!

I was just unravelling their point.

@Helleofabore I would also hazard to suggest that the likelihood of two 6ft males being afraid of anything fairly slim - even when head-to-toe in sequins.

There is no argument here.

If they both were frightened TW, a polite word to the shop staff and checking with anyone within the changing room first, and ensuring the lady trying on the top was afforded the privacy she needed, would have been the appropriate way to proceed.

Two men strolling into the women's changing room. They weren't frightened. They got away with it because they were allowed to. It's nothing to do with fear and everything to do with power. Anyway there was nothing to stop the assistant at the men's changing room checking to make sure it was clear before they entered. No need to use the women's.

And in this case, there was two males who certainly seemed to be able to support each other.

So, in this particular case, why would anyone bring up a frightened male? Unless it was more distraction or more attempting to control women’s discussion/writing about their concerns.

And weren’t we told earlier on this thread that the likelihood of being harmed physically was low in a busy store’s changing area? So again, why bring a frightened male into this discussion.

And as other poster’s say, why is a male’s fright more concerning than a female’s fright?

The sexism simply keeps on going.

What is always COMPLETELY ignored with this stuff is the general behaviour of men. Bog standard bloke men. Not in any way trans men.

(This is done for a reason, it's deliberate. Any point about the behaviour of average blokes is the vast majority of the time treated as if it were about males with trans identities. Acknowledging that a point is not about trans people but the millions of men who are not trans can't happen because there's no way to respond reasonably that also means gender > sex).

Contd...

If they both were frightened TW, a polite word to the shop staff and checking with anyone within the changing room first, and ensuring the lady trying on the top was afforded the privacy she needed, would have been the appropriate way to proceed.

Also, how many scary men were active in the men’s changing room downstairs at the time, to warrant these two to flee to the women’s area?

‘If’ - such a world of possibilities.

Why does trans woman being frightened matter more than a woman being frightened?

it could be a frightened transgender person

I doubt that's the reason. Although frightened or not, they don't get to use my daughter as a human shield to protect themselves.

Stonewall have fallen a long long way.