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Original poster

Zara - male bodies in female changing room

483 replies

BoreOfWhabylon · 05/12/2021 04:35

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there Grin

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

OP posts:
andyoldlabour · 05/12/2021 11:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

DoubleTweenQueen · 05/12/2021 11:51

@Cordyceps

I wish we would talk about one thing and not bring everything else into it. Staffed, mixed-gender changing rooms with cubicles where people are changing tops or bottoms and at most stripping down to their underwear, with other people right nearby and staff keeping an eye on things, are not remotely the same as an unstaffed changing area at a sports hall or a swimming pool where people strip down to full nudity and depending on the time of day or how busy the place is, it could very easily be that no one is in shouting distance.

That is not what we're talking about here, we're talking about the changing rooms at Zara, which have in my experience never had less than 30,000 people milling about at any given time.

You are talking about a different scenario, though. The changing rooms being discussed were for women, and flimsy curtains combined with communal changing area. Women enter a women’s changing room, expecting it to be for women. They have made that decision based on the information to hand. Most would not be comfortable to then see men in that changing room.

I’m sure if changing rooms were individual cubicles, with full height doors and locks, plus suitable supervision, the thread wouldn’t exist.

But Zara et al won’t do that because it’s a very expensive refit.

You’re making an argument over a situation that is far away from the situation being discussed, and in line with your own more liberal comfort zone.

jewel1968 · 05/12/2021 11:47

I see people have posted links to evidence. I am not 100% comfortable with mixed swimming changing village but what can I do? I want to swim and this seems the only option nowadays. And the cubicles are not as robust as I would like. I don't take off my costume in the shower. But I see women who do and they wander around with just a towel. I could not do that. I do feel more comfortable when staff are about.

FlyingOink · 05/12/2021 11:46

www.spyequipmentuk.co.uk/air-freshener-camera-dvr-hd/

Would you notice this in a changing room? There are plenty others on that site.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 05/12/2021 11:46

I find it very surprising that women are advocating for this. Either these people aren't really women, or they have no understanding of men whatsoever.

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/12/2021 11:43

Why di they need the staff cordy

Is there something about mixed sex changing rooms that requires them to be supervised?

What is it

Artichokeleaves · 05/12/2021 11:41

[quote jewel1968]@EricCartmansUnderpants my point is you would not know they are male. Or you could not be sure.[/quote]
We're back to trying to niggle female boundaries away from inconveniencing males.

Look. You get your kit off in front of whomever you want. Have mixed sex changing and enjoy yourself, I'm thrilled that you're fine with this.

I'm not. I want female only. I do not care any more what the male people in question look like, feel like, need of me, want of me, intend, or anything else. They should not be in a female only space. We've tried this. It does not work for all females. It is not the job of females to enable males at their own expense. If you want to and consent to you crack on, and I'll be glad for you. But go do it in a mixed sex space and have some respect for other females as well as the males.

Cordyceps · 05/12/2021 11:41

I wish we would talk about one thing and not bring everything else into it. Staffed, mixed-gender changing rooms with cubicles where people are changing tops or bottoms and at most stripping down to their underwear, with other people right nearby and staff keeping an eye on things, are not remotely the same as an unstaffed changing area at a sports hall or a swimming pool where people strip down to full nudity and depending on the time of day or how busy the place is, it could very easily be that no one is in shouting distance.

That is not what we're talking about here, we're talking about the changing rooms at Zara, which have in my experience never had less than 30,000 people milling about at any given time.

TreXX · 05/12/2021 11:40

It's not just about risk of being attacked though.

It's about having the right to feel comfortable away from the male gaze.

Some women may feel ok about having men around while they're in various states of undress and yes, most men are fine, but after a lifetime of bullshit from creepy ass men who have humiliated me, objectified me, degraded me from the age of 12 I don't want to have to deal with them when I'm vulnerable.

And men have been known to put spy cameras wherever women and girls' bodies are likely to be seen.

So your friend 'Tasha' may be a lovely trans woman, your dad 'Jake' may be a sweetheart but pervy 'Bob' and misogynist 'Dave' are also at large in these circumstances. And I'd rather they weren't.

Far more women are upset at opening our spaces to males than there are trans people who get upset about not being allowed wherever they like. Why don't women matter?

#nothankyou

KittenKong · 05/12/2021 11:39

It’s not bigoted though is it? These men need to take this up with the ‘bad men’ in the men’s changing rooms then shouldn’t they?

LowlandLucky · 05/12/2021 11:39

I am happy to be a bigot then

KittenKong · 05/12/2021 11:39

Just because some women are cool with it now (would they have been happy as a child/teen or as an elderly woman or if they end up with sight issues or other disabilities - be cool with their teenage daughters changing alongside strange men?) doesn’t mean they can disregard other women’s concerns or that they won’t change their minds after the horse has bolted.

notacooldad · 05/12/2021 11:34

Seriously,we need to just tell them to get out ,why are we putting up with this
Who is the 'we' in this?
Personally I wouldn't challenge after seeing all the shit that is thrown to people who do.
If you ask them to leave they would just laugh in your face at best.
I have no idea how to change this situation but it is messed up for sure.

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/12/2021 11:34

Is assukt the bar?

Cos I just posted you a link.

Videoing OK then?

Cordyceps · 05/12/2021 11:33

[quote jewel1968]@cordyceps I think there is evidence that more assaults happen in mixed changing. The key is staff present but to be honest in my swimming pool mixed changing rooms the staff are thin on ground and the door locks are flimsy or broken (and yes I have complained). There is a Uniqlo I use with mix changing but staff member present so I feel safe. And it's been like that for years.[/quote]
What evidence? Not being snarky, genuinely curious. I've heard lots of people talk about the "risk" of changing room assaults but never heard about a single one that's actually made the news (that I have seen) much less any kind of study with evidence indicating this is a regular occurrence.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 05/12/2021 11:33

jewel1968. But if they're male they shouldn't be in there even if they think they might get away with it. Although I think most people are able to spot a male, whatever it is that they are wearing.

Clymene · 05/12/2021 11:32

I'm afraid you're talking out of your arse @Cordyceps. Unisex changing rooms put women at far greater risk of sexual assault.

fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

OrangeBlossomsinthesun · 05/12/2021 11:32

I translate staff materials for Zara and they have a specific section about not being "transphobic" so this doesn't surprise me at all.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 05/12/2021 11:31

Unisex with proper rooms and floor to ceiling doors is one thing. Just letting men go in the women's where cubicles just have a flimsy curtain is not ok. Have people forgotten how to assess and identify risk?

jewel1968 · 05/12/2021 11:30

@EricCartmansUnderpants my point is you would not know they are male. Or you could not be sure.

Cordyceps · 05/12/2021 11:30

@KittenKong

If they flagged them as unisex (generally they are just vaguely called ‘changing rooms’) then women wouldn’t use them. As it stands, women are tricked in reality because they assume the changing room on the lingerie dept is a ladies only changing room.
That is not my experience at all. Most people do not give a flying rat's ass if the changing rooms are unisex, as long as there is a cubicle door with a hand-turn lock to keep others out until you are finished. Even if there are only curtains, (most) people are not worried about being sexually assaulted in a space with cameras (cameras around the entrance to the dressing room area not in the cubicles themselves) and staff within shouting distance because that is VANISHINGLY unlikely to happen. If they are worried, they are worried about being briefly seen in their underwear by accident.

Yes, it's possible there are rare psychopaths who would barrel in and try to attack someone regardless of cameras and staff. Having a "females only" sign outside the changing area wouldn't stop them.

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/12/2021 11:29

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.news4jax.com/news/2016/05/03/dozens-of-women-report-target-voyeur-suspect/%3foutputType=amp

Yeah its worked out great in the states...

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2021 11:28

@ChattyLion

Unfortunately though with unisex facilities men have access and poor tip to leave spy cams so that isn’t failsafe either. And lockable cubicles in vicinity of men is giving an opportunity they don’t have in a single sex supervised changing room.

We need to stick up for single sex female culture and campaign for our own changing rooms with no men allowed. It’s worked reasonably well for decades.

I actually think we need to campaign to say calling them women's is misleading.

If they chose to go unisex, then the liability falls on the store. They know unisex are a risk. And customers don't like and it will affect sales.

They know labelling as womens but conning women that its single sex flys below the radar.

They would soon invest in changing rooms and policy which wouldn't leave them as open to problems...