Zara - male bodies in female changing room

They said there were complaints if they do let men into the women's changing rooms (that'll be from the women, then) and complaints if they don't (that'll be from the men.) Why are they taking any notice of men complaining they can't go into the women's changing rooms?

@DoubleTweenQueen perhaps if that is your takeaway, you might be more comfortable engaging with someone else instead. There are plenty of people here who agree with you wholeheartedly and you can all have a great time agreeing with each other. Because that of course is exactly how good policy and a well-thought-out world view are created - by only engaging with people who agree with you to the tiniest detail of the teeniest thought.

[quote Cordyceps]@DoubleTweenQueen my point, perhaps badly made, is that people think that a man in the busy Zara changing room makes it unsafe, while a strictly female-only changing room is safe. That perception is wrong. It doesn't mean that someone is wrong for feeling unsafe in one situation and safe in the other - I know, logically, that I'm not at risk being alone on the top deck of the bus with 10 teenage girls. That doesn't mean I'm wrong to feel my illogical fear, but then again, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily the bus company's responsibility to make me feel better about the situation. I don't think that, realistically, any woman is at real risk in the specific scenario of "man in the Zara changing rooms" and I don't think they have any particular obligation to make people "feel" safer by policing their changing cubicles. You may disagree. It'a a big wide world and people have different opinions.[/quote]
Presumably you're familiar with the statistics regarding male Vs female offending..?

Following your example here... what I hear from you is 'bUT the WiMmenZ r jeSt aS BaD sO wHY nOt lEt tHe PoOr meNz dO wOt tHeY wAnT?'

99% of sexual assaults are committed by men @Cordyceps, 86% of women in the U.K. have been sexually harassed by men.

This is not about perception. It's about statistics and facts.

[quote Cordyceps]@DoubleTweenQueen my point, perhaps badly made, is that people think that a man in the busy Zara changing room makes it unsafe, while a strictly female-only changing room is safe. That perception is wrong. It doesn't mean that someone is wrong for feeling unsafe in one situation and safe in the other - I know, logically, that I'm not at risk being alone on the top deck of the bus with 10 teenage girls. That doesn't mean I'm wrong to feel my illogical fear, but then again, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily the bus company's responsibility to make me feel better about the situation. I don't think that, realistically, any woman is at real risk in the specific scenario of "man in the Zara changing rooms" and I don't think they have any particular obligation to make people "feel" safer by policing their changing cubicles. You may disagree. It'a a big wide world and people have different opinions.[/quote]
I don’t think you read and consider anyone else’s comments, do you!!

A male going onto a womans changing room. Deciding the rules and boundaries don't apply and showing their lack.of concern abkut the feelings of women and the entitlement to women bodies as props doesn't make you think they may be a nit dodgy?

They have just told u who they are

@DoubleTweenQueen my point, perhaps badly made, is that people think that a man in the busy Zara changing room makes it unsafe, while a strictly female-only changing room is safe. That perception is wrong. It doesn't mean that someone is wrong for feeling unsafe in one situation and safe in the other - I know, logically, that I'm not at risk being alone on the top deck of the bus with 10 teenage girls. That doesn't mean I'm wrong to feel my illogical fear, but then again, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily the bus company's responsibility to make me feel better about the situation. I don't think that, realistically, any woman is at real risk in the specific scenario of "man in the Zara changing rooms" and I don't think they have any particular obligation to make people "feel" safer by policing their changing cubicles. You may disagree. It'a a big wide world and people have different opinions.

Good gracious! This is ridiculous. If we remove boundaries and safeguards and a child, young girl, woman is assaulted, spied upon or suffers any loss of dignity this is in you. You want to make it nice and comfortable for men to confidently walk into a female only space. I was assaulted in a unisex changing room when I was 11 years old. There were other people around. He came into my cubicle through the curtain and used my hand to masturbate him. He wasn’t a man in a dress he was a middle aged father who had his own children. No body batted an eyelid, no body was watching him or questioning why he was there so he took advantage of the situation as it was a unisex changing room. I was terrified and never made a sound. It was normal for him to be there so I didn’t do anything. So please don’t make it easier for these predators to have unfettered access to vulnerable people.

And it’s not necessarily through fear that I’d rather not share a changing room with men. It is my choice, and my modesty. But that probably is rubbish and meaningless to say, unless to the manager of the Marble Arch store considers me to be of Middle Eastern origin, ffs.

And it’s the instant moving of goalposts - sure, make the changing room a free-for-all, just let me know in advance and I won’t go there. It’s the suspension of choice and trust that is a nonsense.

Yes.

Always interesting when we get to the 'someone obviously told you to say that, female people don't have real feelings/interests/beliefs/thoughts of their own or inner lives'. It's usually combined with a belief that anything females do manage to think about revolves around males and is all to do with males. 'Cos obvs, what else is there for the silly things to think about?

Took a while to be fair

So you've been abused and are afraid but you've got over it so all women should get over it. (in a way that benefits males, who you don't require to get over anything or make any kind of reciprocal gesture).

And you say nowhere's safe so why worry about it? You might as well be more unsafe, accept it and be ok with whatever happens to you.

You do you. Good for you.

But yes, you don't get to consent on behalf of other females. I'll gladly applaud your superiority in being willing to overcome your traumas in order for male people to be able to take more than their share and oppress females, I'll clap your bravery and male centricism (because it isn't inclusivity when it's only male centred), and I'll hold your coat.

But you go do it all in mixed sex spaces as in line with your choice. Female people set their own boundaries. And in consent, no always trumps yes.

It seems to me that the obvious solution is to make the male changing rooms unisex. That way, the actual women can get changed as normal in women only changing rooms and those who want to pretend to be a woman can go to the male one and say, "hey, I'm a woman in the unisex changing area". Win win

You are not posting in good faith @Cordyceps. I will not engage with you further and I would urge other women to do the same.

The reporter had to be in the communal area, in her bra, because all the cubicles were occupied - because these two males were taking up two of them.

I still fail to see how opening up changing rooms to men means it's safer.

It doubles the risk surely?

You now have dodgy men and dodgy women in the space .

I'd like to see a campaign where women go into shops like Lush, Zara etc, fill their baskets with goods they would normally have purchased, photograph the basket and send to appropriate HQ/Twitter with a tagline like #thisiswhatIwouldhavespent or #lostmybusiness etc

[quote Cordyceps]@DoubleTweenQueen my liberal comfort zone? Respectfully, you don't know me, or my politics. You might be surprised if you did. The one thing I will say is that I try to think about things from a realistic and logical standpoint, rather than from what the general feeling or perception is.

Interestingly, I am actually physically afraid of open changing rooms and I don't use the (female-only) ones at my gym. It's located in a hotel and I change in the public toilets right next to reception if I'm swimming, and shower when I get home. This is because I was sexually assaulted by a group of girls in the changing rooms at my all-girls' Catholic school who held me down and pulled my top up and my pants down to see if I had breasts and pubic hair yet. I have a physical fear response to groups of teenage girls in public that I had to overcome through therapy - I still feel it, but I can at least function and not have a panic attack over it.

People fear things for different reasons, and the places you think are safe (like female-only changing rooms at a fucking girl's school) often aren't.[/quote]
None of that changes how you are not dealing with the point in hand.

There is another thread on here about a male chaperone in a girls changing room. So many posts about girls needing safe spaces to get changed, men shouldn’t be in female changing rooms etc
I’m sure most of those mothers posting would say those of us on this board on TERFS

And in the time I took to type that (which I might add wasn't fun, or easy) I've got five comments saying WhY do You WANt to GiVE AwAY mY RIGGGGHTs. Like, honestly, have a real conversation instead of spouting lines you heard somewhere else. Try to be a human instead of a walking political strapline for five minutes of your life.

@DoubleTweenQueen my liberal comfort zone? Respectfully, you don't know me, or my politics. You might be surprised if you did. The one thing I will say is that I try to think about things from a realistic and logical standpoint, rather than from what the general feeling or perception is.

Interestingly, I am actually physically afraid of open changing rooms and I don't use the (female-only) ones at my gym. It's located in a hotel and I change in the public toilets right next to reception if I'm swimming, and shower when I get home. This is because I was sexually assaulted by a group of girls in the changing rooms at my all-girls' Catholic school who held me down and pulled my top up and my pants down to see if I had breasts and pubic hair yet. I have a physical fear response to groups of teenage girls in public that I had to overcome through therapy - I still feel it, but I can at least function and not have a panic attack over it.

People fear things for different reasons, and the places you think are safe (like female-only changing rooms at a fucking girl's school) often aren't.

Cordyceps there are loads of women on here as well as tens of thousands on the mail site telling you it does matter to them, that their privacy, dignity and safety is important. Why do they not count? Why do you think you can give away their rights?

@Cordyceps
You have no right to give my rights away. I would not be ok to have changed in this situation. Neither would my 13 yo dd. And why are you discussing lockable doors when there were no doors but flimsy curtains?

[quote BoreOfWhabylon]An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html[/quote]
yeah, no, dont read that rag