Zara - male bodies in female changing room

DB178
I'm not gas lighting woman I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

Yet no organisation / government has ever asked women whether we consent to having men intrude into spaces where women and girls undress and are vulnerable. Why do you think that is?

I don’t see their brain or feelz - are we supposed to have bloody mind reading abilities? I can’t see auras or halos either.

I know why some males would do this. What's baffling is why some women go along with it. Men aren't women. They know they're not. Female brain in male body?? It's just a brain in a male body. I can't get my head around the nonsense people fall for.

And of course, to reiterate, telling women that males are women too and to not trust their instincts that they are now undressed with males standing over them is also gaslighting.

Who benefits from that? Males do. What benefit do females get from that apart from others telling them they are kind.

Thing is, as a male sex person, they’ve had most of a lifetime of using men only facilities (from what 8 up from then their mums stopped taking them into the ladies loos and changing areas?). So they are used to being around other men. They might not feel comfortable, but it’s what they know.

Now I don’t like open changing areas - I’m not comfortable being bakes or undressed around strangers full stop. That’s just me. But I know if it’s other women, there’s nothing I’ve got that they haven’t seen before and vice versa. So I use a cubicle, don’t shower naked, get in and out fast...

I don’t demand that I use someone else’s facility because I don’t feel comfortable (ignoring the fact that I would not be welcome or make other people feel uncomfortable or unsafe - or it’s not the rules/unfair/I’d be making people who ‘belong’ there avoid the facilities). Maybe it’s a woman thing.

There should be no sacred group of males that are allowed to access female single sex spaces. Unless they are u set 8 years old.

And by under 8 years old, I mean just that. Not someone who identifies as under 8 as we also have a group of males who identify as children too. Should they be also allowed to access female spaces?

No male should feel they have the right to access a female single sex space. No male.

It doesn’t matter how they feel that they are entitled to, because of their gender.

Do you think that the male with the semi erect penis should have been able to enter a spa bath with a nine year old because they identify as a woman?

Why should any male use a female changing room?

This is the effect of prioritising gender over sex when safeguarding is involved. Sometimes sex matters.

To tell women otherwise is gaslighting them by telling them. You are creating a special sub group of males who cannot be questioned.

So what if she did ask those males why they felt they were entitled to be there? In your mind, if they answered they were women because they identified as such, you are stating that journalist should have accepted them being there.

What is not gaslighting about that point of view?

I think we work better if we all support each other rather than it being woman against everyone else. I'm not gas lighting woman I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them? She judged and assumed

Women are not support humans for dysphoric males. Why is it always on women to solve everyone else's problems first before we are allowed to have or do anything else.

Women solved theor problem by setting up amd campaigning for spaces just for women.

Males are free to do the sake for them s long as it doesn't involve cuckooing ours

I think we work better if we all support each other rather than it being woman against everyone else

Nah, I'm for women ta

We're vulnerable in society for so many reasons, why aren't you looking out for us and our needs?

Women on these boards have decades of experience.

We know the realities of moving through the world as a woman.

You're coming across as naive, inexperienced and idealistic.

Ideology is dangerous in the real world.

Her experience doesn’t count because she works for the Mail?

You obviously didn’t really read the article as you would have seen that the journalist checked with staff after the first time she saw those two males and was assured it was female only.

There was no cubicle available so used the communal space to quickly change into the new shirt.

Those males seeing her there did not even have the self awareness (or else it was deliberate) to move away to give her privacy.

But crack on with the shame you are piling onto this woman, who happens to be a journalist for the Mail.

Cordy still hasn't answered my direct question.

Inclusivity for whom?

For the minority of women who cannot be in confined areas with males due to their religion? For the women who have suffered trauma at the hands of males?

Or inclusive just for the males?

Just read the article curious to know how the writer knew what these people identified as. Did she ask or assume?

The entire point of the article was that it simply should not matter how those males identified. They were males.

Unless you are about to pull the ‘how can you tell’ card. We see that card pulled very often. If you have an inability to accurately identify the sex of someone, don’t project that onto others. Most females can reliably sex another person once they can see movement, see body and facial proportions and hear voices.

Stop trying to gaslight women.

The problem with being inclusive is it excludes a large amount of the population for the few. If gender is your agenda then you are being exclusive.

Women are human, not simply here for validatiing others.

the changing room is set up with a communal area so that women can quickly try things on if all the cublicles are full. it means bigger capacity. Communal means women in their underwear.

"Also she chose to remove her top in a public area people may be offended by that."

It's a communal changing room.

Question: what's in it for women?

what's in it for women, for men to walk into the women's changing room? What could be motivating 2 six foot men in beards to enter the changing room and stand behind a woman in her bra do you think?

We don't have to lose our voice by being inclusive. Society will function so much better if it stops being them and us and we all just support each other

Again, on please, how naive.
If inclusivity was really the goal, then the needs of a far bigger proportion of society who live with physical disabilities would be part of this conversation.
Their needs aren't but the physically disabled "them" is not as valued [harsh, not my personal viewpoint].

"All just support each other"...thanks, I will support women, as we are also a marginalised group.

There is a communal female experience of sitting in a dressing area, while your mum/sister/friend/daughter tries something on, then comes out for a twirl, either partially or fully done up.
That just does not happen in communal or mixed sex areas.
Why should I be at the loss of this for the sake of some men who want to access a female area?

Just read the article curious to know how the writer knew what these people identified as. Did she ask or assume? Also she chose to remove her top in a public area people may be offended by that.

Think changing rooms/toilets etc should be gender less with individual rooms with locks so anyone can access and feel safe to do so.

Heh knew it! I thought Twitter though but at least two posts on here saying she was in the wrong for changing top in communal area of women's changing!

Do I win a prize?

Some seem to not have a feel for changing here.

When I was a teenager some shops had COMMUNAL changing for girls/ women.
Yes it was hideous.
No the men didn't I found that out talking to chaps about how awful it was.

In England at least and likely UK generally but can't say for fact-

1. Some shops had communal women's changing room and while not seen one for a fair while, still not exactly distant past

1. Many have a big mirror in communal area which is generally used so can stand further back, turn etc better than in small cubicle. It is perfectly standard to pop out and use mirror.

1. Plenty women's clothes esp party type have zips that most women can't do up. It's usual to pop out ask female friend/ mum etc if with you. It's not uncommon to pop out not done up and another customer offers/ or you ask if they don't mind. Or if woman who works there about she will often offer, do for you.

1. Cubicles here are commonly curtain often gappy at sides.

1. It's not rare for woman looking for friend get wrong curtain stick head in. Also sometimes think empty and pop head in. Or think it's theirs and pop head in. No ones fault just one of those things. Anyone... Could make that mistake.

1. If crowded not unusual if just top to try in communal area. Not surprising. More unusual now but I mean so what just women not like showing anything assuming got bra on!

1. In larger dept stores I've seen massive communal area with lots of seating for women with woman trying stuff on. Mirrors massive, some angled to see from back. Exist because. Yes it's normal to come out show friend. Zip up. Hide bra straps/ arrange boobs. Turn and both have good look. I like those changing rooms v spacious. Ones I've seen all cubicles open onto big communal area. The idea is a good one- knowing what women like, catering to their comfort. I don't think they realised anyone would be able to use.

I don't know why always posts about doors locks etc imagine must live somewhere different norms.

Read article and first page of thread. Will catch up though.

My money is on the response from those who support gender > sex will include or very possibly say something like-

Why did she take her top off in the communal area not in a cubicle? Did she do it on purpose after she saw those she didn't want in there? To manufacture the situation so she could be outraged?

Or, is she an exhibitionist? There were cubicles! Who the hell doesn't go in one to take clothes off! No one wants to see her (insults about body).

Plus. 6ft so what? Some females are 6ft! Policing women's bodies! Anti-feminist!

And the usual how know male/ judging on presentation is appalling/ can't see gender ID and should always respect.

Plus nothing happened! So what's the problem?

Blah blah.

Imagine if someone actually did ask the women of the UK if they were cool and dandy with mixed sex changing rooms?!