Life expectancy of medically transitioned young people

I don't believe this data is being recorded and that is nothing short of medical negligence. People need to know both the risks and the benefits in order to give informed consent to any treatment.

I've chosen non-necessary medical interventions for mental health reasons (medical management of miscarriage) so I fully understand and sympathise with taking physical risks in order to ease psychological suffering. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do and doctors should help you. BUT only if you fully understand the potential consequences of your choices. Otherwise? I'd argue that uninformed consent is not consent at all.

The 'under the radar' bit was well planned, wasn't it? Christine Burns of Press for Change has talked about the importance of changes to the law going unnoticed by most of the population

Good point Old Crone.

But this 'right to access treatment' means what, exactly? We are told that being transgender isn't a medical condition. If that is so, why would transgender people need special medical treatment and why should they have a 'right' to that treatment?

Exactly. Transgender we are told is neither a physical medical condition nor a mental health medical condition but free specialised (and expensive) health care both in the areas of mental and physical health is demanded. Make your fucking minds up.

We largely made it through under the radar and escaped without seemingly the whole world constantly debating our right to access treatment and scrutinising every facet of our lives!

The 'under the radar' bit was well planned, wasn't it? Christine Burns of Press for Change has talked about the importance of changes to the law going unnoticed by most of the population.

But this 'right to access treatment' means what, exactly? We are told that being transgender isn't a medical condition. If that is so, why would transgender people need special medical treatment and why should they have a 'right' to that treatment?

Transition is something that happened in my past before I was even an adult and I barely even thought about it most days for years until recently - when it became impossible to escape the constant exhausting bombardment.

What 'bombardment' are you referring to? And why do you think this is happening?

seemingly the whole world constantly debating our right to access treatment and scrutinising every facet of our lives!

Nearly word for word what my anti-vaxxer cousins say - I'm being slightly facetious, and genuinely glad you are healthy and happy.

But the importance of accurate investigation and recording of medical data is in the best interests of everyone's health - as it's been pointed out several times, female ppl have specific risks here.

I knew peers who were told they had to stop smoking before they'd be given hormones!

Like purgatory I am also surprised that you did not realise that many women knew the elevated risks associated with taking hormones (for me also in the form of contraceptive) and smoking.

I am also sure you are fully aware that oestrogen increases your personal chance of stroke etc. I mean.... women have a wonderful choice of taking hormones needed for their bodies (because they are female bodies) to counter some effects of that body's processes (reproduction or menopause) and having increased strokes etc or not taking them and suffering the long and drawn out menopause symptoms with no assistance.

And smoking has been linked to reducing the effectiveness of that oestrogen supplementation anyway.

So, I am not sure why you would be surprised that if a male wants to take estrogen supplements they would be told they needed to stop smoking.

And I appreciate you not calling it HRT because the dosage of estrogen that transitioned males receive is not replacing lost estrogen as it is in females. It is and it remains 'cross hormone therapy.'

when it became impossible to escape the constant exhausting bombardment.

Yes.... quite. It is fucking exhausting to be fighting the constant bombardment so that our daughters have a life that is free from stereotypes, free from male dominated health care regimes and with amazing opportunities for females that are equitable as those being for males but without them having to fight any male to access those opportunities. Because, of course, we have been fighting to establish those all our lives and now those opportunities have been diminished and diluted again.

So... yes. The constant exhausting bombardment is impossible to escape.

I knew peers who were told they had to stop smoking before they'd be given hormones!

You say this as if it is outlandish. It is well known that for women, smoking and taking hormonal contraception (which raises the levels of hormones that women already have endogenously) raises the risk of heart attacks, thromboses and strokes.

Stopping smoking before taking hormone treatment in a male body is the bare minimum of safety precautions. I had to have a blood test to see if I carried the gene for a particular disposition to blood clotting issues before I was prescribed the pill. I was clear for it but I am now actually banned for life from using any oestrogen-containing contraception anyway, due to a totally different issue I developed (resulting in hospital treatment)! I was told to inform my close female relatives they were now banned from it too, because of the likelihood the issue was genetic.

@TheABC: while it would be useful to be able to say 'look, the numbers do indeed follow what we've all been individually saying for decades', every time I hear about a data breach or a hostile member of NHS staff, I'm somewhat relieved to have been spared all that. We largely made it through under the radar and escaped without seemingly the whole world constantly debating our right to access treatment and scrutinising every facet of our lives! Transition is something that happened in my past before I was even an adult and I barely even thought about it most days for years until recently - when it became impossible to escape the constant exhausting bombardment.

I was on three types of medication earlier in the year, each related to transition; I've since stopped one (related to surgical side effects from over a decade ago) as it turned out it was no longer needed and have reduced the other down to the lowest possible dose, with the expectation that I'll soon be able to drop it too. That just leaves the usual hormone therapy I've been taking for twenty years.

The documentation for that hasn't really changed since I was first issued it, and the increased risks that come from synthetic hormone therapy were made very clear at the time. I knew peers who were told they had to stop smoking before they'd be given hormones!

Absolutely, helle.

Its good that you feel that you are doing well, butterfly. please do remember though that one of the most glaring flaws from a feminist perspective in the sparse data available at a population level is the lack of sex disaggregation. It seems that the effects of hormonal manipulation and surgery are far, far worse for females than males ( I am using those terms in their biological sense), and this is broadly going unrecognised. Given the huge shift from majority MTF to FTM young transitioners, action and understanding are urgently required.

It’s just not good enough that the data is not collected, and then such data as there is is obfuscated and played down.

I've been watching the youtubes of TTExculansic, lots of horror stories there, and realistic commentating on the unrealistic expectations of these young people.

yes. And it does seem to be that female transitioners fare the worst of it. We have also had many women comment on the life long residual issues they have with medically necessary mastectomies. I cannot imagine a life in store for those young women of significant nerve damage, paint tingling and discomfort.

It is yet another aspect of transition that males do not have to deal with.

As with the other thread Butterfly, you are male. The health risks are significantly higher for females. Particularly for those who end up with very early ovary (under 30s) removal due to atrophy and who then do not take estrogen supplements.

There is a much longer list of risks and I doubt you can discount the female detransitioner accounts of what even a few years of testosterone has done to their health. Sometimes life limiting and if ovaries and uterus removed, it can be life shortening.

As I say, we have been through this on the other thread if I remember correctly. It is really very important that you state very clearly, as you have, that you are a single data point and a male. So, you can only post from a male health perspective.

I also remember you did have other medical issues associated with transition that you have failed to mention here.

I do think, @ButterflyHatched that the healthcare professionals missed a huge opportunity when they failed to follow up with your cohort's transition. The (anonymous) data could have made a huge difference to the debate, today when numbers are so much higher.

On the other thread, you mention you are on three types of medication to treat the side effects of your transition. If you don't mind me asking; were you briefed about these before you started your transition or have they arisen since them? (E.g. expected). I find it deeply upsetting to think of these young transitioners undergoing treatment without a) being told about the likely outcomes - good and bad - and b) not getting the body they desire.

This is just anecdotal but years ago I asked the manager of The Bangkok Lady Boys what happened to the performers when they got old. He said few lived to a ripe old age due to the hormones/drugs etc. He also said for some it was purely financial, they weren't all trans. Grim.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4350998-the-judgment-in-keira-bell-s-case-will-be-given-tomorrow?msgid=110962941#110962941

There’s no point rehashing that thread, but it was pointed out to you that your experience is not comparable at all to these children in Sweden, even if you have the sensibility to point out that you’re a single data point.

Glad to hear you're doing well, ButterflyHatched.

The “underplaying” starts with the language itself: top surgery / bottom surgery. Sounds innocuous, but the real, medical terminology should be used: mastectomy, etc.

Single datapoint: Late thirties trans woman here, transitioned in teens at turn of the century via GIDS, doing pretty well so far!

MH better than majority of peer group, and has been since transition even despite everpresent minority stress etc. Moving to another part of the country at start of university significantly helped there - a complete clean break avoided the hangover abuse from having transitioned at school in a world that was then extremely hostile to trans people.

Physical health largely pretty good. Wear and tear from highly active hobbies has, as expected on approach to 40's, started to have a noticeable effect. ECG results from a few months ago were commented on as extremely positive by GP.

There may be hidden horrors lurking ahead - hormone therapy does come with increased risks etc, even after switching to patches. It's important to be realistic about such things!

All told though, I'm about as healthy as if not healthier than most of my peers and don't seem to be suffering any transition-specific issues. All frightfully boring and ordinary, really.

www.zeit.de/sport/2018-03/doping-ddr-sport-dopingopfer-kinder-folgen-hilfe-english

Presumably including both men and women, East German anabolic steroid victims die on average 10 to 12 years earlier and are at a 2.7-times greater risk of falling seriously ill than the general population.

A woman who was doped as a teenager reports the horrific effects she has suffered since:

Myocarditis with enlarged left ventricle and inflamed interventricular septum
Enlarged heart
Heart arrhythmia
High blood pressure
Thrombosis and pulmonary embolism
Liver damage
Impaired coagulation
Arthritis in the spine, hips, shoulder, ankle and thumb joint
Ganglion cyst on the right ankle
Dyslipidemia
Varicose veins from chronic venous insufficiency
Hypothyroidism with nodules
Several benign tumors and cysts
Obesity
Anxiety and panic disorder
Burn-out, chronic fatigue and depression
Eating disorder
Virilization: facial hair growth, male-pattern pubic hair growth, elevated testosterone levels
Underdeveloped ovaries and uterus
Pain medication intolerance
Insulin resistance

She is only 44. Her 11 year old daughter is also chronically ill. Miscarriages and birth defects were reported by East German victims even when they had stopped the anabolic steroids years previously. archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/sports/other/020600swim-germany.html

The implications for detransitioners is very worrying. Women being given anabolic steroids since their teens for their whole lives would be even more severely affected.

This cynical, destructive commodification of perfectly normal teenage angst about body image by the Medical-Industrial Complex via influence on the media is the scandal of our age.

And via gaming? I was wondering about all the "anime avatar" TRAs. Are Anime and Gaming "Terrible Twins"?

Globally, gaming is bigger commercially than the Music Industry and the Movie Industry combined.

UK Gaming Demographics:

www.statista.com/statistics/300513/gaming-by-demographic-group-uk/

"‘In the game, I knew myself as Hannah’: the trans gamers finding freedom on Roblox"
The Guardian, 24 April 2021

www.theguardian.com/games/2021/apr/24/in-the-game-i-knew-myself-as-hannah-the-trans-gamers-finding-freedom-on-roblox

Sadly, I just don't think there's enough data on this yet to make any medical decisions.

I'm becoming very concerned by the casual attitude to cross-sex hormones.

This is a post from a female who identifies as non-binary, who claims to be taking supplemental testosterone in order to grow a moustache.

This is a hormone that may affect the functioning of all your organs, being taken for the sake of one cosmetic side-effect.