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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans training at work

60 replies

Debroglie · 03/12/2021 16:18

The trans train has arrived (with stonewall help) at my workplace (a secondary school) and we are having training on using things like ‘assigned at birth’ and ‘cisgender’ can I refuse to participate on the basis that it is in opposition to my beliefs?
I know I probably can’t but my blood is boiling! Especially for all my lovely gay and lesbian students who will be vulnerable to this crazy brainwashing.
I don’t know what I’m asking but I feel so completely powerless. As a science teacher I have spent my career fighting the idea of ‘lady-brain’ only to find myself now compelled to preach the exact opposite message!

OP posts:

Leafstamp · 04/12/2021 21:08

@Doona

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to do the training? It's obviously a huge issue with kids these days. You can ask questions, find out more. Even if you disagree, you can clarify your arguments.

You’re right that it’s very important that teachers know how to support students who are unhappy in their bodies or with the sex they have been born but sadly Stonewall are likely not the right people to be advising on this.

But I would definitely go to the training, as would love to hear from the horse’s mouth how a boy can be a girl or vice versa. And I would ask questions as per a PP’s suggestions.

I can understand why the OP wouldn’t want to go in the same way that an atheist would not want to attend training on how to be a good Christian.

Doona · 04/12/2021 20:25

FannyCann · 04/12/2021 20:19

I like the idea of an anonymous email to the head. Am going to think carefully about that.

It seems a nice idea initially but I would definitely think carefully.
Isn't it giving notice that there is a non-believer among the staff? Depending on the Head's views it may give rise to a determination to winkle out the identity of the heretic.
You will have to observe appropriate obeisance to put him/her off the trail.

Original poster

Debroglie · 04/12/2021 16:53

I like the idea of an anonymous email to the head. Am going to think carefully about that.

OP posts:

Original poster

Debroglie · 04/12/2021 15:59

More girls than boys I think but there are both. Some trans girls have a campaign to be allowed to do pe with the girls but so far have not been allowed afaik

OP posts:

Original poster

Debroglie · 04/12/2021 15:58

I’m not senior enough to have access to the data but I can say for the students I teach there are groups so for eg in year 10 there is a form with 5 non binary students (all transitioned in year 9). Pronouns they/them and changed names in every day use but not all changed on their school records. In my year 13 there are 2 out of a class of 13 so 15%. I have no idea if there is school wide data on this. I know of 2 trans students in year 7. These are just some cases I know of but there are more.
I learn their names like I learn all students names.
If I had a gnc girl at the school I work in I would be very worried about her.

OP posts:

Cailin66 · 04/12/2021 10:01

@KittenKong

Loads? Loads? For goodness sake...

I’m just wondering how many is loads. Is it 20% of a class. Is it more girls than boys. Just wondering in percentages how far this has spread. My children had no trans anything at school (Ireland) there were gays and lesbians. But I’d say not even 1%.

KittenKong · 04/12/2021 09:53

Loads? Loads? For goodness sake...

Cailin66 · 04/12/2021 09:52

@Debroglie

We’ve got loads of trans and non binary students. According to our 6th formers the biggest issue in school is teachers not using the correct pronouns or avoiding using pronouns / new names altogether. The training is taped because COVID.

How many have changed names? What years. Are there very many different pronouns? How do your ember them?

GrumpyPanda · 04/12/2021 09:35

@Megan1992xx

That the two situations were not comparable, that you could self identify your gender but you could not self identify your race, skin colour.

To me the 'appropriation' in each is essentially the same although I find the appropriation of sex more offensive.

What utter nonsense when it's actually the other way around. Sex is a plain biological fact whereas there's very little about "race" that isnt socially constructed. I believe biologists openly deride the idea of "race" in humans given that there is so little difference between human groups in genetic terms. Whereas on the social construction side you've got the "one drop rule", colourism among minorities, etc etc. I believe Italian immigrants to the U.S. originally weren't considered "white"? Also the really appalling use of a term such as "Caucasian" which is deeply rooted in obscure mid-19th century racist ideology and really quite close to terms like "Aryan". (FWIW actual Caucasians, meaning people from the Caucasus, tend to get denigrated as "eti chernye" or "those blacks" in Russia- actually witnessed that myself once).

Leafstamp · 04/12/2021 08:07

@Worrysaboutalot

What about setting up an anonymous Gmail account. Send an email to your head explaining what you put here, plus a few links.

This is a good idea. You could either not make any reference to who you are or just introduce yourself as something like a member of the school community who doesn’t feel they can speak out in your own name. You can even use this as an example of the problem - cite Forstater and Kathleen Stock.

Actoncurrerellis · 04/12/2021 00:58

It’s hard to challenge the dogma on your own - but if you could tag-team with two colleagues I think you might be able to put the trainer on the spot.

Your professional life is based on breaking down difficult concepts and explaining them clearly to your students, and a key part of this is having clear and precise definitions. Mass is not the same as weight; velocity is not the same as speed. You should expect the trainer to show the same care for the underlying concepts as you do in your teaching.

So hammer away at the definitions - what is the difference between gender and gender identity? How do you define womanhood if not biologically? - and look out for the conflation of sex and gender - e.g. toilets have always been gender-neutral but they are sex-specific. The reason for your questions is that this is a really important subject and you don’t want to lose sight of your LGB students.

Best of luck OP - and I apologise for the pomposity of this post.

Worrysaboutalot · 04/12/2021 00:22

What about setting up an anonymous Gmail account. Send an email to your head explaining what you put here, plus a few links.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/12/2021 22:29

“Megan1992xx

That the two situations were not comparable, that you could self identify your gender but you could not self identify your race, skin colour.”

I think he may be wrong, not in principle, but in that people do try to appropriate some of the culture and appearance of black people; that some people have tried to present as black and got a job or scholarship intended for someone black. I’ll have to look it up; and maybe some people have tried to look darker etc.

Also things such as saying chest feeding is appropriating sex not just gender. Saying Cis woman is roping someone if the female sex into gender identity.

People are self/ identifying into the bone structure of women’s physical, sexed, features through surgery and hormones.

People are taking jobs and sports places intended for women.

The stupidity alone is worrying.

Leafstamp · 03/12/2021 22:12

@Megan1992xx

That mirrors a response and got on the staff room thread, from a poster who rolls his/her eyes if any questions are asked.

It’s straight out of Stonewall’s #NoDebate rule book.

Megan1992xx · 03/12/2021 21:53

@Storminamu
'How helpful of him to explain that to you - presumably with no explanation of why you can self identify one but not the other. Just something he knows as a fact and that should be obvious to anyone, presumably.'

The whole exercise was illuminating, the training was an explanation of opinions as facts, the use of a presumably vulnerable transman to garner empathy and sympathy and the constant reminder that the expression of opinions which opposed Stonewall's view of this issue were likely to be harmful and transphobic. The feelings of transpeople were the most important factor and overrode legitimate debate about the actual nature of sex and gender.

Hopefully this will not be deleted!

SolasAnla · 03/12/2021 21:13

@ElectraBlue

If you don't like this, find a new employer.

Women

Don't get married

Don't get pregnant

Same old, same old

Megan1992xx · 03/12/2021 21:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

ElectraBlue · 03/12/2021 20:53

If you don't like this, find a new employer.

Storminamu · 03/12/2021 20:51

@Megan1992xx

That the two situations were not comparable, that you could self identify your gender but you could not self identify your race, skin colour.

To me the 'appropriation' in each is essentially the same although I find the appropriation of sex more offensive.

How helpful of him to explain that to you - presumably with no explanation of why you can self identify one but not the other. Just something he knows as a fact and that should be obvious to anyone, presumably.

HipTightOnions · 03/12/2021 20:04

I wonder if we are at the same school Debroglie?

I have gone to the Head. It's not going brilliantly so far.

It would be great if others spoke up, but I understand why people don't. I am past caring about my career!

Megan1992xx · 03/12/2021 19:43

That the two situations were not comparable, that you could self identify your gender but you could not self identify your race, skin colour.

To me the 'appropriation' in each is essentially the same although I find the appropriation of sex more offensive.

Storminamu · 03/12/2021 19:37

@Megan1992xx

We had the Stonewall training a young transman came in and spoke to us about his experiences. Nothing wrong with that then came all the BS.

I took one of the trainers aside, who happened to be black, and asked him if he was offended by cultural appropriation. He said he was very much offended and then asked him if he could understand that many cis women were offended by the appropriation of their sex by men.
This went down like a lead balloon and I am in doubt that when it comes to career advancement well?

What did he actually say?

FindTheTruth · 03/12/2021 19:34

Especially for all my lovely gay and lesbian students who will be vulnerable to this

Is this staff training or are they getting involved in lessons or providing materials? If a teacher teaches students, who don't conform to stereotypes, that they have a 'gender identity', it's arguably a coercive, manipulative attempt to 'change' a lesbian or gay student's sexual orientation. It might be worth dropping LGBA a message.

Also, maybe you could meet with the head and formally request that they not do this, perhaps with the support of feminist groups.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 03/12/2021 19:27

Ask your head why they are allowing a political lobby group to teach anything.

Point out that genderism is a niche, highly contested belief system and like any other religion should not be taught as fact and that some children are particularly vulnerable to peer pressure and social contagion.

Only a tiny minority claim to have this inner gender essence they call a gender identity and no one can change sex.

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