PM on Radio 4: what is gender identity?

That was odd. Evan can't understand why it's so vicious because there's quite alot of agreement between ks & iw - in that they both agreed some ppl feel v strongly they have a gi, some ppl feel v strongly they dont. Some ppl think gi is the more significant factor, others think sex is. But the reason it's so vicoous is because those 2 world views clash in policy making. But he didn't want to talk about that.

One of the other reasons it's so vicious is people like Evan, and Evan himself, have been engaged in nodebate for at least 3 or 4 years. They should have been curating the discussion so that it could happen in a sensible way. Instead it's been allowed to happen in a completely dysfunctional unregulated way.

I was going to say IW doesn't subscribe to some of the 'sex is a social construct' stuff, but then i remembered her cervix! Thats the opposite to the female penis though. She obviously sees gi as biological in some way. And she was against self id when the gra change was proposed. So she isn't that representative of the gender ideas that have been influencing policy.

Had a look at IW's twitter, thanks, Mumm.

IW commented on Tommy Sheridan promoting the FWS meeting on 6th December on Self ID.

IW described TS as a "right wing nut".

Hilarious.

Heard snippets (kept getting interrupted by DD) but what I did hear seemed to be was where KS started to talk, IW butted in, talked all over her and Evan pipped up to ask KS a different question when she hadn't had a chance to answer the first one because someone couldn't keep their trap shut when it wasn't their turn to talk.

Then Evan agreed they all had a really good chat, he wanted to delve into it some more, would they agree to come back, both said yes please, all sounded very friendly.

Now IW on twitter is now saying they had a horrible experience because they couldn't mention how someone wanted to eliminate them most likely because it's not fucking true they are in shock and have to have a think.

Can't be being seen having had a rational chat with KS on the radio, what if they turn on you for engaging with her?! Better claim victimhood status!

Ugh, how infuriating.

If you feel moved to do so, do consider emailing PM with your thoughts. They quite often read out messages and emails and if they will indeed be covering this topic again in the future, presumably they'll pay attention to listener feedback.

This page on the BBC website has details of how to get in touch: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/6HM9VZ1mvwz0RGJFJx6F6X/contact-us

Very disappointing.

And wtf was India trying to say with "I'm sure you think it's as easy as buying a pair of shoes"?!

I don't know if it was meant to be deliberately goady a la Caitlin Jenner's "the hardest thing about being a woman is choosing what to wear," but that is how it came across to me.

Evan Davis remains the most useless R4 presenter. One day he will ask a question worth the breath it takes to form it. That day will herald the end times.

Did KS actually speak?

I don't think India has much idea about bird behaviour.

Rather disappointing interview and discussion piece, I thought

What that hugely edited because KS didn't seem to say anything at all.

All stereotypes again. Basically.

I hope they bring in a talking object so that IW can take turns talking effectively.

May be they'll start claiming that the gay penguins are really just trans

Didn't hear it - can anyone quickly just write the definition here?
Ta v much.

gender identity just quite simply who you are - so if you don't have one, you are a nobody. Cool I guess.

You should ask Feathers McGraw, he identifies as a chicken.

Placemarking

I do enjoy radio discussions between women and men who identify as women. They're very illuminating I think.

Very poor. We heard what Evan Davis thinks. Also that he doesn't want to get into the practical considerations but the philosophy. And that he doesn't understand why it is so toxic. The practical considerations of the philosphy are WHY it is so "toxic". That made me cross. Definitely lots of heat from India. No light at all on why many women are so angry. If the coverage is going to be like this, it will be worse than useless.

There was a lot of telling us all what Kathleens Stock thinks - I thought that is what Kathleen was there for

"#NoDebate is definitely over" and one side is engaging in unarmed combat, Lizzie.

Big dollop of mansplaining and "now what are you ladies talking about, a man is here". Buuuuutttt , more sunlight is a good thing. And No Debate is over.

What is a biological gender?