PM on Radio 4: what is gender identity?

Havent heard it yet but PM has gone from being one of my favourite radio shows to one of the least.

I tend to listen to World At One now in the evening as I don't catch it during the day.

ED has a Jeremy Corbyn-esque exasperation with people he plainly doesnt like, particularly women.

“SpringCrocus

Evan did say the priceless phrase

"if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still feel like a man inside"

Which is progress on his part, I think.“

The thing is, though, Crocus, when he said this, my interpretation was not that he meant you can’t change your sex by lopping off parts. I think he meant, “Ah yes, I see what you mean about identity. I have an inner “man” identity that couldn’t change.”

This just reminded me, I saw Willoughby having a tantrum about this on Twitter. It's quite funny.

Now I've read more of the thread I see I should have been more specific. This is a different, earlier tantrum that happened before the programme aired.

IW said something like we all have a gender identity from when we are about 3 years old.

The problem is that the development of "gender identity" in children used simply to mean that they started to understand there is a difference between males and females, and which category they belong to.

I think at that age they still believe that long hair and dresses => female though. (There is a lovely video somewhere which illustrates this.)

This just reminded me, I saw Willoughby having a tantrum about this on Twitter. It's quite funny.

Evidently IW threw a tantrum about Stock being on the programme and said they wouldn't appear if Stock was in it, then backtracked when the BBC said "fine then." And then IW went on Twitter to spin it as as the BBC discriminating against trans people.

twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1463833606967767040

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I said I felt ED was biased so not the person for these discussions.

He was trying to prove the existence of an innate internal gender identity.

KS pointed out she felt more masculine inside. So...

"... I'd still have 59 years' worth of memories of being a man".

This stupid "though experiment" infuriates me.

if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still feel like a man inside

So was ED basically saying that surgery and hormones don't change anything?

KS:

If India wants people to believe she's a woman, then the very first thing she needs to learn to do is to lose the very male habit of aggressively interrupting and talking over women.

I am paraphrasing here and trying to remember:

IW said something like we all have a gender identity from when we are about 3 years old.

KS said such small children do not know what that is.

IW said she was wrong, the NHS would say she is wrong too.

I am pretty sure not all 3 years olds really know the differences in sexes clearly apart from that they are a girl or a boy based on clothes - unless they have a sibling of the opposite sex. I am sure they don’t have a gender identity.

My 3 year old grandson, who lives with his mum and goes to nursery with boys and girls , and who is pretty bright, said about the little girl illustrated in his potty training book, who had a roll of lavatory paper in front of her, “Now will she wipe her penis?”

So does anyone know what NHS facts IW was referring to?

Basically the interview gave us a nice trans woman, who felt her gender was misaligned with her body from an early age, who felt fine from the moment she had transitioned. She is very reasonable. She knows there is a biological difference between women and transwomen. All of us have a gender identity as well as a body. Only a minute percentage feel they have bodies misaligned. What is the problem? Implied: only unreasonable people could find this a problem.
The end

Nothing problematical was brought up.

The content of this “discussion” lacked depth, and any actual discussion. However it’s all sunlight and even Evan Davis may learn something.

I haven’t heard it but just read the comment about IW calling Tommy Sheridan a right wing but 😆

I kept waiting for the discussion to move on from penguins and shoes and 'isn't this nice that we can all be friends' to actual lawmaking. The troublesome fact that laws can't be made around feelings, regardless of what three year olds think. And that women are still discriminated against in the workplace, disadvantaged by biology and raped and murdered by men at frankly fucking terrifying rate, regardless of how they feel inside.

"if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still feel like a man inside"

It's more that

"if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still BE a man inside"

Evan did say the priceless phrase

"if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still feel like a man inside"

Which is progress on his part, I think.

IW is having a bit of a Twitter melt. Basically saying she needs to process the ‘horrible experience’ of not being allowed to say that someone is trying to ‘eliminate’ her. Then #BBC
Any more and she probably won’t be invited back on - the implication is that she is being censored... whilst on national radio

Lions and clown fish and penguins…oh my!

IW has blocked me so I can't see India's tweets.

I found the fact that Evan really didn't want to talk about the practical implications of the ideology he supports really revealing. Basically he articulated his 'lalalala not listening' stance.