PM on Radio 4: what is gender identity?

I assumed Evan Davis was bit a friend to women (I didn’t listen - my blood pressure can’t take much more).

So I hear IW made a bit of a boob of themselves, talked over people, and didn’t offer to show their cervix (which I believe they have done on twitter - offered that is)?

The lions and penguins thing was ridiculous. I’ve emailed PM (again).
Evan Davies is a plonker and I think is a bit disgusted by women and their bodies.

Did IW say that lions are trans because the lionesses do the hunting and penguins are trans because the father penguins take a turn looking after the egg?

Being trans isn’t only about enjoying shopping for shoes or buying and wearing different shoes?

Just been pondering the lions and penguins thing.

Can’t discover any more about IW’s perspective as I too have been blocked on Twitter despite never having had an interaction with IW (or anyone else for that matter) on Twitter or anywhere else. I suppose IW uses a block list of some kind.

I look forward to hearing more of Kathleen Stock on PM hopefully she’ll be allowed to speak first next time.

I realise now what was annoying about the 'discussion' - I'ts ED's 'humouring' tone of voice. A sort of 'I know it's hysterical wimmin fussing about this but I suppose I'd better have this debate as the boss is demanding it'. He's not really interested in it, can't see what the fuss is about but it's just something he has to do.

Amol Rajan was the same, last week I think it was, interviewing a transwoman (I think it was) about a book she's written on the subject.

ED used this tone of voice a lot when Brexit comes up and he interviews brexiteers.

Smug successful men aren't going to give a monkeys

I’d heard of Tommy Sheridan but didn’t know much about him. I do now- he’s a bit of a character

I doubt he gets called right wing very often Novel!

And, yes, I think I've maybe misinterpreted EDs comment. I thought he was agreeing with a sex based position, but it could well be he was agreeing with the whole "innate gender" shite opinion.

See, IW, this is how sensible human beings react to dissent and differences of opinion!
We go away and think , then come back and re engage. Politely.

Was she thinking of Tommy Robinson??

OK, just been off to google Tommy Sheridan

I think so @malanimo

I don't like to be unkind but I have long suspected willoughby is not the intellectual equal of many of the women she is debating with. Unfortunately, it seems to be a common thread among some of the loudest voices.

As I've said on another thread, my view on what being transgender means has travelled so far in the last few years, trying to take some concept of 'innate gender' into account that somehow isn't a load of sexist blue/pink brain/soul nonsense, that's it gone full circle and I'm far more 'able' to talk about people wanting to be the other sex or feeling masculine/feminine - things that I don't think are accepted as correct now? You'll know better than I...

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@Clymene
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Gender identity doesn't exist, and - if you can be trans without one - then it doesn't need to exist.

The burden of proof is on those who claim it does exist, and until they can come up with something that is not based on circular reasoning or sexist stereotypes then we shouldn't need to respond to them.

But hey-ho. I also believed it once. And I got very uncomfortable when I was challenged about it. Because I knew that I could not defend the claim.

But listening to India made me think. When India says gender identity is “who we are” and “everyone has one” including lions (?) does India (and other TRAs) mean that gender identity is simply one’s self , what we might call the subject of first person subjectivity and consciousness?

This is what I can't get past. When Evan Davies says he'd still feel like a man if you chopped his kit off, what he means is he'd feel like himself. Our selves are a whole package of experience and socialisation and the way our caregivers interacted with us and brought us up and the verbal and non-verbal cues we have picked up about our place in the world. There isn't an invisible separate organ within us called gender identity that would wither and die if our sexed bodies were altered, and frankly it's batshit that a supposedly serious programme like R4's Today should be discussing it like that's a possibility.

IW interrupts and talks over people. I don't know if it's so others can't talk, but this is what India does.

The fact that this discussion is even happening is a step forward. But I strongly suspect India will pull out of any future discussions, because eventually, you have to get down to the point of what the bloody hell is gender identity then? What are you identifying with? How do we allow this to affect policy?

It's edging closer to the denouement.

I really enjoyed the absurdity of the lions and penguins. They lifted the segment into Brasseye parody. It’s so good to have some new animals join the lonely clownfish in the gender-fluid petting zoo. I hope Kathleen had a bloody good laugh once she’d rung off.

Something I find fascinating about this whole debate is that basic terms like “gender identity” are really vague and woolly and make so little sense to me that I end up yelling “yes but what IS it?” And yet all the trans activists around me seem to have absolutely no trouble with the concepts whatsoever. But listening to India made me think. When India says gender identity is “who we are” and “everyone has one” including lions (?) does India (and other TRAs) mean that gender identity is simply one’s self , what we might call the subject of first person subjectivity and consciousness? Have we just been talking past each other? But then that seems to be a major redefinition of “gender”! Why call it gender if what we are talking about is the self ? Or am I just over thinking this as usual and trying to find a way for it to make sense?

Turns out India Willoughby , with whom I have never interacted, has blocked me on Twitter. Probably because I follow some awesome women. Probably happened ages ago .

Evan did say the priceless phrase

"if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still feel like a man inside"

Ie he agrees with India, we all have a gender inside and in her case it didn't match the outside but in ED case it did/does.How the F does he know that - what bollox

ED will be wheeling out a collection of barbies and GI joes to illustrate his point next time 🙄

That just before the 6pm news chat slot is often a bit vacuous and ED seems a bit lost in his line of questioning. It's generally about something less controversial though.