PM on Radio 4: what is gender identity?

I remember when IW said on BB "I am a real woman, let that penetrate".

My trans woman colleague says something similar. She means that her GRC, very strong sense of gender identity and style is what makes her a woman. She accepts that my prolapse, fibroids and hormonal mood swings are linked to my womanhood and that we are not the SAME kind of woman but she also insists that we are the same. And she tells me that I have a gender identity, despite me saying that I have absolutely no sense of gender at all. She tells me this makes me a-gender, which means I am, according to Stonewall, trans. Go figure. I don't understand, she is unable to explain - it's an ongoing circular conversation which is testing both of our patience.

It is very important to her that I agree with her, and she is frustrated that I don't care at all whether she agrees with me. Her opinion on whether we are the same has no influence over my fibroids - and as only one of us has to deal with that then my blasted uterus is hard evidence that we are NOT the same.

I'd like to hear what the meaning of "a real woman" discussed with a group of trans women, lib fems and gender critical people - a mix of both sexes and any gender or sexuality or hairstyles. I'd expect it to be enlightening.

It would need some skilled chairing. Victoria Coren might be a good shout, she's very bright, has a calm manner and I don't think has ever passed comment either way.

Who do you think would be suitable for a chair?

I think the point IW was making about lions and penguins was that all animals (including humans) have different roles for the different sexes. She was imagining that sex roles in animals is similar to gender identity in humans. She said lions and penguins have unusual gender roles - I took that to mean lionesses hunt, and male penguins look after eggs and do some parenting. For her that is 'unusual'. I guess it is in the animal kingdom but I think it was quite telling. She talked about female brain in male body, biological gender, and equated gender id to sex roles in animals. She sees gendered behaviours and cross sex identities in biological and evolutionary terms, not in social and cultural terms.

I wonder if Evan has seen IW's twittering about how she was prevented from saying that stock wants to eliminate trans ppl, and had a horrible experience. Did she raise the whrc declaration and was told that would not be OK because daily politics had to apologise to stock for that? I would have thought Evan thought the interview went ok as a friendly-ish discussion without too much heat. But the tweet is so far removed from that. The tweets is from am alternative reality really. Will it make him double take and start to think something is very off?

Ah, violent agreement?

“bordermidgebite

I think what you mean is that

Children learn that adults consider them a girl or boy and treat them differently because of it“

I was meaning that very, very young children have an idea they are a boy or a girl because adults tell them that’s what they are when they say things to them such as, “Good boy” or “Good girl” or “Do you think that little boy over there would like one of your crisps?”

Or “You are a boy, like Daddy”, etc

So, although boys and girls may or may not be treated differently by those around, I wasn’t referring to that element of how they learn about themselves- I only meant that children learn they are a girl or boy in the general way they learn the names of other things in their lives. Boy, girl, man, woman, cat, dog, apple, bed.

It's a load of old bollocks, and people are beginning to hear it. Bring it on.

I think what you mean is that

Children learn that adults consider them a girl or boy and treat them differently because of it

Re: India Willoughby saying children have sense of gender identity by 3 and the NHS agrees

Here is an article, with videos showing how young children only know they are a girl or boy based on a very simple understanding of the appearance of things - boys have short hair, girls have long hair. (And I am sure too because their parents tell them
what sex they are). This is the same sort of knowledge they have that one animal is a cat or another a dog. It is part of their scheme of naming what they see in the world.

They don’t really understand about how they are a certain immutable sec until they are much older.

www.transgendertrend.com/young-children/

I thought that for most people listening, they would have heard one side saying very odd things (lions have gender identities, children have a gender identity by three) and one side saying sensible things. The thing about gendered souls was odd. I think (hope) when given airtime, the GC side looks a lot more reasonable.

I also thought IW was much more reluctant for a follow up discussion. KS welcomed it

I rather like the idea of the gender fluid zoo. It would be like one of those creationist natural history museums that end up having to twist science like a pretzel to get it to fit the narrative.

Come and see the amazing non-binary panda! Hiss and spit at the cis-spiders! All hail the intersex snail!

Just listened to the programme. Wow, India really does interrupt a lot... Just one thought - if "we're all aware of what gender or what sex we are by teh age of three" (IW), how would India explain the explosion of teenage girls who suddenly feel the need to transition, having never expressed any gender dysphoria in the past?

I'm seven years younger than ED and I was the only out lesbian in my uni initially, two more had come out by the time I left and there were about four gay men in our l&g group. I got a lot of harassment though friends were okay. It was still a pretty hostile world though, and most of us who were out were distant / estranged from our families.

This debate shouldn't be chaired by a man.

ED needs to butt out and let a real woman handle it.

I think I. Willoughby is referring to africageographic.com/stories/unravelling-the-mystery-of-mmamoriri-the-maned-lioness/. We know h doesn't approve of women having hair on our bodies, looks like the sexism extends to a lioness with longer hair on her neck too. www.independent.co.uk/voices/womans-hour-india-willoughby-leg-shaving-controversy-the-dorchester-feminist-female-appearance-shave-dirty-leg-hair-a7456421.html

I'm not sure Stephen Twigg was out when he first became prominent in the union. I know that he was the object of many a female crush which wouldn't be the case had we known

I was at Oxford a couple of years after him and while many were out, many were not.

Honestly, it's not because of his age. It's because he doesn't like women.

ED is a raging misogynist. He always handles any issue to do with women - and especially feminism - with his patronising tone and his 1970s attitudes.

On Today he once asked if the decline in marriage figures is that the gender pay gap declining means women can’t find men who earn enough to be worth marrying.

I think it because they really suffer from the imposition of gender norms (especially if they are a bit camp). ED is of an age where you couldn't be out at work and at university. Thus they think "not being your true self" is the only issue

ED is also an economist and many of them are also pretty bad at seeing structural inequality.

Oh no. Not really. I’ve many other ends of the spectrum!

I think we assume gay men are friends to women (which they often are). My brother, who is gay, has many good women friends. He’s a medic and the only exams he failed when training were ob/gyn ones. He told me this was because he found it difficult to overcome his feelings of repulsion. I imagine other gay men have similar feelings and it colours their perception of women, perhaps at a level they’re not conscious of.