Men and paraphilias

Teenage girls were were doing things to make their breasts less noticeable when I was at school and I'm nearly 50.

This is not a new phenomenon.

The switch from being seen/ treated as a child, to being seen/treated by loads of men as a sex object is really sudden, unsettling and confusing. And very very unwelcome. Esp when it comes young.

For loads/ most.

If you go through puberty when that bit older maybe it's more easy to get to grips with I just don't know. I mean depends on girl maybe? Or maybe as many hate it then as well and try to hide? Literally no idea outside my experience. Interested in views from anyone who did and hope not pissed anyone off! Just male gaze from what, 10? Is hideous, so young.

Thing is that across society there's a view that essentially when a girls body starts to become more adult, they somehow become sexually 'procative', know that they are 'sending signals' with their clothing hair makeup etc and often choose things deliberately to get general male sexual attention.

And society at large continues to blame creepy/ awful/ illegal male behaviour towards girls on the girls not the men.

So this phenomenon isn't going to go away.

It's such utter shit for girls experiencing this. We get used to it after a fair old while. Learn to expect, dislike and ignore. Lots of women enjoy attention from men sure. But how many it's obscene comments from random strangers on the street etc. Nope we don't like it and why would anyone think a child should ever experience this.

I think something similar is driving the teen girl binding culture - not only the gender stuff, but also that the past two decades’ fashion for big breasts and bums is shifting/about to shift again.

Binding. Yes.

Ironic that someone who is trans and, one assumes, quite familiar with it all doesn't realise the reasons behind breast binding. Unless they really do think all these young women are binding in order to ruin their social standing amongst peers 🙄

Because
..

It's seen in s certain way by society esp men...

Fancy being pleased that your boobs are jiggling! One reason why women wear bras is to stop them jiggling!

Just realised.

The must increase bust thing is grease isn't it.

ONJ the star. Who stuns everyone esp the blokes including the v cool one she fancies.

I mean I wouldn't usually point this out but she was not massive in the bust dept by any means. Yet back then seen as vv sexy including by men. Remember physical?!

I grew up in the 90s when the aesthetic was very small breasted and perky - and especially, you were not considered sexy unless you were extremely thin, and could wear strappy tops and dresses with no bra/no support. I was deeply ashamed of my larger breasts, and bought those M&S Minimiser bras to hide them - having large breasts really limited what clothes you could wear. The youth culture and fashion message then was very much that bigger breasts were fat, saggy, vulgar and mumsy. Big breasts were certainly not going to give you any social points - rather the reverse!

It wasn’t until the big breasted look came back into fashion in the mid-2000s that I realised, to my utter astonishment, that suddenly they were considered sexy. That a was a definitely not my experience as a teenager or a young adult. I tried to hide them away as much as possible and was very jealous of friends who were flatter-chested.

I think something similar is driving the teen girl binding culture - not only the gender stuff, but also that the past two decades’ fashion for big breasts and bums is shifting/about to shift again.

Say they understand us!!!!

😳

It's a really interesting topic.

BUT. doesn't get away from the way it's common for men to understand us better than we do. Especially in things that involve secondary sexual characteristics. That they personally essentially fetishise!

And yes men interpret large breasts all to often as an indicator their owner is more up for it than other women. Sorry to use these words. But it goes- what clothes you wear if big breasts goes from, more covering to less.

Way more up for sex than other women. To deliberately wanting sexual attention of the more unpleasant type. To slutty. To deserving to be laughed at.

If a woman is not wearing a bra that gives the male approved level of pushing up and making obvious. Then they are somewhat gross. As gravity takes it's toll (and the owner gets older they get called saggy, droopy, loads of jokes. And of course if they're 'too big' and not attached to a very attractive young woman. Then they're obscene, gross.

If big breasts are sexually very attractive to men full stop. Why aren't much older women who often seem to have v large breasts the sexiest of all? (Rhetorical!).

If size is everything why was poor old Lola Ferrari a joke, rather than a sex symbol?

Anyway this concern with breast size stuff at school in no way related to any hierarchy. Some girls who were very uncool indeed, I mean some were more developed and it didn't make them popular. IME. Did it in yours?

There was also the fact that even when young we know larger breasts while theoretically an impressive thing to have, related I suppose to the wanting to grow up fast thing. We were well aware even then it was a double edged sword.

The couple of girls in my class who had big boobs received massive amounts of harrassment, inappropriate comments, lewd suggestions. From random adult men. From the age they grew for my best friend started at just 13.

Bus driver offered her to go free if she let him touch them. Nice tits/ show us your tits yelled from cars. Men staring. All that stuff.

When she grew up, I've lost count at the number of times men have grabbed her boobs in pubs.

So no. It's not as straightforward imo as you say.

No, I agree big breasts were pushed as better when I was a teen. That was very much the fashion at the time.

Once you get older though, I think it becomes more complicated. Large breasts might be seen as great if you're Pamala Anderson, but they can be hard to dress in terms of fashion, and when the grunge/Kate Moss era came especially. And there can be a class element too, where if you want to look put together and classy, a more moderate figure is seen as better.

I remember talking about them a lot! And a general feeling among the girls who were less developed due to age of puberty or just that's their body that they wanted them to get bigger. Like the film you mentioned although not sitting around in nightclothes chanting!

I'm sure you will not agree, but the constant messaging that big breasts are better is pushed by media outlets and certainly was in my day. Better why? To be 'attractive' although at that age that was where the thought pretty much stopped. The 'to men' part was there but at that age that bit was not really in thoughts. For loads of girls and women it never is really consciously why. Despite the common bizarre view that it's why eg schoolgirls roll up their skirts, crop tops exist etc. To often even when it's a 12 yo. It's taken that they deliberately choose those things to encourage any and all men to see them as sexually attractive and (seen often when there's a sex offence) sexually available.

The fact that girls and women are generally following prevailing fashions/ girls (like boys) want to be 'grown up' and copy those older than them/ the popular mainstream images is somehow generally NOT why girls do it. Grim IMO.

I can kind of see the big boobs-hierarchy thing with teen girls, in a limited way.

A lot of middle aged male transitioners seem to view themselves as teenage girls, like this one, for example:

“It’s funny, I’m 55, I am very hormonal, I am going through puberty again which means that I am just getting to my teenage girl years – so watch out world.”
🤮

I can kind of see the big boobs-hierarchy thing with teen girls, in a limited way. It makes me think of the Judy Blume book where the girls are trying to do exercises to make their busts bigger.

But that doesn't really last long, and it also kind of depends on being slim otherwise.

And in this case it's such a massive amount of entitlement and arrogance being displayed.

I think women are like this. I know how they think, behave and feel. I know how women behave towards each other and why. Personally I know it's like this because that's what I want it to be to explain why my personal thoughts and beliefs are right. And so what I want makes total sense.

Of course women do not all think behave etc the same. That's obvious to anyone who has met more than one woman in their life. Or seen them on telly / read their writing etc.

That is explained though. Like this.

The women who support me. And/ or the women who agree more or less with my view of women. They are normal, sensible and can see the truth.

Women who argue are not able to see the truth, or have personal reasons for rejecting it. Could be that they're not attractive to men and therefore unhappy and angry. They might have been radicalised into a twisted doctrine. They could be angry at men for some reason and this has damaged them. Could be a lesbian. Etc etc. Everything they say can be ignored or discarded.

We see this where there are groups with conflicting views on loads of topics.

Note:
Women support and believe all sorts of different things. Obviously. Whatever their reasons.
Plenty support or agree with most or many aspects around certain views about what women are like.
Whatever their reasons. They exist.
The knee jerk reaction to use terms like handmaiden, internalised misogny, man pleasing etc are the same reaction to disagreement. Ignore, reject. Assume and assert various things about why they can't see the truth.

In the end it's not helpful either way. However it's seemingly a natural human reaction. Seen across all topics with groups who fundamentally disagree. Imo.

Thank you missed that thread. Blimey. This one summed up what's going on with all of this IE women are what men say they are:

'From a male perspective I'd say that female breasts are a sexual signal. We tend to notice them'

And thus breast size underpins female social position.

Fucks sake!

All the time loads of women have said that NO ONE can really understand what it's like to be anyone else. And when it comes to things with major differences like sex. With such huge differences due to biology and society. Then not going to happen. You're always an outsider looking in. You might be able to relate / empathise well. But you can't KNOW unless you've experienced it. All your life and without any way to avoid it. I would never know I know fundamentally what it's like to be a man in England. Any more than a woman in Afghanistan or Mexico or Iceland. Or even a woman in England 70 years ago.

How is that not a total given? I would say because saying you can, means you don't have to listen to people of another group who say things you don't like, and feel it's fair to do so. Eg. This is about enjoying victim status/ actually about hating the group being criticised. It's really not that bad for black people/ people in poverty/ women experiencing DV as is claimed. Etc etc.

As someone with big boobs this has not been my experience. Life would’ve been a LOT easier with smaller ones. But I can imagine why men not think that.

Anyway…

There were a couple of threads about this article, but they seem to have been zapped. I think it’s probably worth posting it here as it’s a lesbian mag platforming male paraphilia.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/divamag.co.uk/2021/11/24/trans-on-the-run-origins/amp/

This is the thread with D. Hayton butting in to talk about developing breasts signalling sexual reproductive availability to men and larger breasts giving social status among women. This is not normal male cluelessness. This is Hayton's explanation of Erotic Target Location Error. I don't believe for a second that Hayton actually thinks girls and women feel like h does or the things he says about girls and women are true when Hayton is a teacher of 11-16 year olds and is married to a woman. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4303993-posie-parker-s-latest-glasgow?pg=8.

The weird think is that plenty of men don't prefer really big boobs.

But due to the messaging I mentioned. Large breasts are still embedded as shouting 'SEX!' in the same way as frilly knickers etc.

Coupled with the fact that it would appear that relentless male attention and demands for sex is something that these men view as highly desirable

I remember Jane Clare Jones saying that when she became aware of desire as a teenager she thought "Oh, this is nice" for about 5 minutes until she'd had enough experiences of being shoved up against a wall or touched against her will to shift her thinking to, "This is terrifying" (I paraphrase).

You're spot on that it's such a completely different perspective that it's utterly divorced from the reality as it's lived by women.

A man who has AGP, and, in my opinion, is identifying with, and as, an entirely male view of what a woman is, would quite likely be viewing bigger breasts as a hierarchical concept, as it's something that they themselves will often grade.

Coupled with the fact that it would appear that relentless male attention and demands for sex is something that these men view as highly desirable, it's little wonder that their opinion of what an actual woman is, is so skewed.

And, again in my opinion, leads to a lot of the conflict between them and us. They are viewing their version of womanhood as an entirely male constructed edifice with little or zero realisation of quite how fake it is.

It's so common I've heard it so many times. And often not so in your face as that!

And of course loads of women support the men on this. And also use the same reasons other women disagree. See it all the time. She's spoiling the fun, doesn't bother me, just banter etc.

I'm a member of a sports club and one of the coaches said something sexually inappropriate to a passing stranger while representing the club.

One of the female members complained.

The take of a couple of the male members was that the complainant had recently had a baby and so was jealous of the figure of the passing stranger. wtf.

Same reason for what I wrote above.

I'm not saying that any individual TW consciouly comes up with this stuff.

We all know that the constant messaging of men are like this and we women are like that has massive impact, is insidious.

Women do this with men all the time as well when an easy answer to a question that's not comfy is just so much better.

With men when it comes to women it's really pushed hard, constant, and society nods along. And it overlaps strongly with porn of all types from soft all the way through. And so is intertwined with that basic drive. For most reinforced through puberty surely, when most young men are extremely, can I say frisky? I'd think associations reinforced often, and at that age. Will generally take pretty deep root.

The fantasy of women as doing everything to be sexually appealing to men, doing so much for men's approval. And more than that. Being so constantly up for it that they even get turned on eating chocolate (or feeding the cat wtf). I mean that's going to be irresistible!

From the that men know women better than women do. The skies the limit! And leads to do much- in this case- the superimposing of the idea there's constant competition between women (that's why they are all bitchy). The women with the things that are currently 'sexy' for women win. The other women admire and despise them.

In this case the belief that women have a hierarchy of social cachet (in general and ubiquitous) based on things like breast size is obviously ludicrous if stop to think about real life and women they know etc.

And yet. It's a male centred flattering view, which also dismisses women as being essentially all the same and shallow and living for male attention.

They don't WANT to know. To the extent that must never stop to think about it, or accidentally listen to things that day otherwise. If they do it's said by bitter flat chested lesbian feminist maniac. Simple!

A few months back, Debbie Hayton had to be disabused of the notion that the size of a woman's breasts indicate the extent of her social cachet amongst her peers. Debbie thought that bigger breasts pushed women further up the social hierarchy amongst other women.

I missed that development and I'm truly sorry that I didn't remain in ignorance but I accept it's useful to know these things.