Billy Bragg's 'sexuality' - is 'trans' a sexuality?

'Homophobia has never been about the actual sex acts.
Gay rights was always about sexuality. And about sex acts.'

Why do you think that? How can anyone not know that the men having sex with men, globally and historically, has been the massive issue by a mile?

That's the reason the LGB groups came about.

In the UK there was a specific crime of buggery. Law targeted at male/male.

Around the world still there are plenty of countries with specific laws about men having penetrative anal sex with men.

Around women having sex with women it's just not the focus, or even in the picture.

It was always about male penetrative sex with men being seen as immoral, disgusting, dangerous etc.

I would be really interested to know why you think that you haven't come across this.

It's just stupid, there's really no evidence that what people call gender identity is the same as sexual orientation. Although there are some interesting ways in which people's feelings about masculinity and femininity relate to sexuality, so maybe it's not so odd that people think of them as connected.

Though there's also not a whole lot of scientific understanding of the idea of sexuality as such, and it's not a concept that is ubiquitous or identical across times and cultures. In fact there was, years ago, an argument made by some that placing emphasis on sexual orientation as a category of identity would result in a multiplication of sexual identities, which at the time I thought seemed crazy but now less so.

Trans ideology enforces stereotypes.

Males who call themselves women aren't celebrating their non conformity as males. They are simply adopting the sex role stereotypes they, as males, think make females 'women', when the only thing all women have in common is being part of the same sex class.

No. Really not.

I'm an adult human female, capable of expressing myself in any way unlimited by the fact of my sex. That sex does not ever change regardless of what I do. And no, I'm quite happy being a female lesbian and really don't want to be jammed in other people's boxes because I'm stressing their personal stereotypical thinking. Very happy for them to live their life and respect their choices; I expect the same courtesy in return.

(Not that I get the right of reply to be as rude in reply to that celebrity as they felt entitled to be in the national press to lesbians.)

@abitofadvice1234 I'm really interested in your post. You say "they [trans people] break from their assigned gender roles the most, by choosing to the social and physical role of the other gender. They are going the other way, against societal prescription."
I'm not sure I understand how this is the case. Surely a man who doesn't conform with society's gender expectations but chooses to still live as a man is actually breaking from expected roles more than a trans woman. By deciding to 'live as a woman' they're in effect accepting that only women can be sensitive, feminine (or whatever the female gender stereotype is); and that men can't have that type of personality.

I'm all for breaking free of stereotypes but I don't understand the need to change appearance, ie to try and look like the opposite sex. I'd really like to know more

I am very sorry you were bullied and harassed like that, it is awful to hear, and sadly it's all too common an experience

However the harassment I encounter now, often, and right here on MN from people who would term themselves as activists and allies, is to push me as a lesbian back towards patriarchal gender norms, which is that as a biological female, biological males regardless of their choice of identity have an entitlement to my body that comes way above my right to a sexual orientation or opinions or feelings of my own, and requires me to be obedient to politics including with my body. I encounter radio broadcasts from respected TW speakers, such as Rachel McKinnon, informing me that I should 'learn to cope' with heterosexual sex as a social duty, and 'overcome my prejudices'. Which implies that as a female I have no right to expect reciprocation or enjoyment in sex, but have a duty to meet male needs and ensure male pleasure.

It does not get much more regressively patriarchal than that! Or much more homophobic, or misogynist. And this is done in the name of LGBT+ including such as Stonewall. I appreciate your polite engagement and your sharing your views, and while I see your point, I find that I have stepped away from LGBT+ organisations such as Stonewall, and have become very wary of being out in public or to people I don't know well exactly because I am wary of homophobia and harassment of those who would say they are pro LGBT+ or are LGBT+ but absolutely do not accept my homosexuality or autonomy and equality to males as a female on a sex based principle (while telling me at the same time that sex doesn't really exist and is assigned at birth) and will attempt to pressure me back towards conformity, obedience, prioritising the needs of males selflessly and recognising male entitlement to my biology, (which I'm not supposed to mention), and move back to heterosexuality like a good girl.

So I'm at this point both confused and somewhat disbelieving that gender stereotypes are any more of a good thing now than they were when I was a child and girls were fighting to be allowed to grow up to be mechanics and soldiers and not just hairdressers and other people's mums.

Abitofadvice

"Funny thing was, I never got made fun of for me being attracted to or having romantic relationships with men! It was always the me being feminine part. But, despite the lack of focus on my sexuality, the main way in which I was bullied and policed was through sexual harassment, usually by straight men.

And these men were certainly straight. Not a gay bone in their body. Had relationships with women. Sexually harassed other women. Just weren't gay. Buttttt they would constantly sexually harass me. Whisper about sex in my ear. Grope me. I was once cornered in the locker room. Not because they were particularly attracted to me. But, because I wouldn't play the dude game. I was different, not in their control, and therefore power was exerted over me through sexual harassment. "

What you describe here is how men treat women. Not lesbians. Not bi women. ALL women. And by not conforming to their expectation and toxic masculinity, you challenged them so thy treated you as they treat us ( us as women- not as lesbians) sadly, what you describe is what most women experience repeatedly regardless of their conforming to stereotypes or not. The abuse we face as lesbians is in addition to and separate from the abuse we get just for being female.

I do agree with you however that it is about control. And I'm so sorry that you experienced it.

Artichokeleaves, and Kittenkipper,

I think we disagree less than you think we do! Mind hearing me out a bit?

The question I'm trying to answer is why is the T, a gender orientation category, represented in the LGBT acronym, which at face value seems to also exclusively be made of sexualities.

What I think brings them together is gender non-conformity.

I think what's getting confusing in the above paragraph is the the idea of gender non conformity. When you say that you probably hear non conformity in gender presentation!

What I am saying is, is that, even without any changed gender presentation (a lesbian acting and dressing exactly like other women around her), the simple fact that the person is homosexual (so a woman who likes women) is, in itself, a gender non conforming characteristic. You can be femme, but just you being gay does not conform to prescribed patriarchal gender roles.

Because, by being gay, you're not going to have a romantic relationship with a man, which is a large part of the gender expectation for women.

And I think yours (and my) experiences of sexual harassment at the hands of men come from, rather than simple sexual desire, a place of gender policing and want of control. Just like other forms of sexual violence, it's not about sex, it's about power, and men want to exert their power over lesbians, and trans women, so make both fall in line.

Take your example of those terrible men who made fun of you with the V signs and tried told you to try their dicks. They singled you out with this particular harassment. While some of them probably just wanted sex (so many always do), the majority probably did it to point out and humiliate you for your difference. For your love of women. For you not wanting to be with men. You weren't conforming to the role you were prescribed. By liking women you came out form under their influence, so they harassed you and made you feel lesser and made you feel unsafe in order to shame and bring you back into their control.

Though you might not believe it a lot of similar things happened to me!

I live as a trans woman now but in high school I was a somewhat feminine bisexual boy. Though I was much more often in relationships with women (usually other bisexuals), everyone who didn't know me saw, basically, as a gay guy. I didn't dress partiuclarly femininely, but I put effort into my appearance, and naturally acted in a traditionally feminine way. Throughout I had gender identity issues, didn't like hanging around other men, and mostly had friend groups and friendship relationships with women. I wouldn't jockey on the male hierarchical ladder. I wanted no part of it.

Funny thing was, I never got made fun of for me being attracted to or having romantic relationships with men! It was always the me being feminine part. But, despite the lack of focus on my sexuality, the main way in which I was bullied and policed was through sexual harassment, usually by straight men.

And these men were certainly straight. Not a gay bone in their body. Had relationships with women. Sexually harassed other women. Just weren't gay. Buttttt they would constantly sexually harass me. Whisper about sex in my ear. Grope me. I was once cornered in the locker room. Not because they were particularly attracted to me. But, because I wouldn't play the dude game. I was different, not in their control, and therefore power was exerted over me through sexual harassment.

So, in both cases I understand the root cause of this sexual control exerted by men to not be sexuality per say, but our respective traits of gender role non conformity. For you, being attracted to women as a woman, and for me being feminine as someone who was assigned male at birth.

then surely the pressure on me to learn to be more heterosexual and to fulfil my social duty providing sexual access to biologically male people in a properly modern LGBT+ way is aboutenforcingconformity with gender stereotypes rather than breaking them?

Yes. The stereotypes are needed by those who follow gender ideology. They need them to be inforced. To them any non conformity means trans. Butch lesbians show up the nonsense of this.

Come to think of it, if homosexual orientation is by itself and alone a sufficient breaking of gender stereotypes (whatever they are, varied as they are between cultures, time, place etc) - then surely the pressure on me to learn to be more heterosexual and to fulfil my social duty providing sexual access to biologically male people in a properly modern LGBT+ way is about enforcing conformity with gender stereotypes rather than breaking them?

It still is sexual. The homophobia that I encounter most as a lesbian is an insistence that I should not make choices about my body that suggest I would reject a male partner on the grounds of their biology. It's all about sex. Those inflicting this homophobia have no interest at all in my feelings about or expression of gender, or my feelings, or personality, or anything else at all, they're merely interested in the biology I'm in possession of, and whether I'm unreasonably depriving a male of access.

Homosexuality isn't a preference, it's just part of who I am

Speaking as a lesbian there is no logical reason to lump the TQI in with the LGB. LGB are about sexual orientation, the others are not. The T is homophobic! Stonewall used to be LGB until recent years

Abitofadvice- ime the abuse and insults, jokes and references were and are ,over whelmingly sexual. Lesbians particularly. My memory serves with crude hand tongue gestures being the norm, and that men are happy for women to wear trousers but NOT for them to reject men sexually. Jus needing a good dick, converting lesbians after a shag, prowling gay bars and fetishisation of "girl on girl" is my experience of homophobia. It seems very much about sex, and male entitlement to women's bodies.

And yes, homophobia is largely about basic moral disgust, and in men a fear of sexual vulnerability. The toxic masculinity policing is tied up in it, but that's the root of all the jokes you're talking about, and the 'backs against the wall boys' nastiness I remember from those decades.

Um.....

No, homosexuality isn't about gender non conformity, its about a sexual preference other than heterosexuality. Not all lesbians looked masculine, not all gay men looked feminine, two highly butch male steel welders having sex would still have faced imprisonment until less than a century ago, and the death penalty if you go back another century.

I'm a lesbian who thinks gender roles are unhelpful and untrue stereotyping and doesn't believe they have anything to do with sex, and that doesn't stop me being LGBT+ because the politics/gender beliefs don't affect the fact I'm homosexual. And I have no problem at all with trans people breaking whatever gender stereotypes they like, I'm all for it. I'm only against removing female people's sex based rights.

The reason is quite simple actually! It's all about gender non conformity.

The main focus of LGBT rights campaigns in the second half of the 20th century and the beginning of this one have been focused on accepting different sexualities and combatting homophobia, but, since the beginning there have always been trans people (though they were known by different terms in years past) in these movements. Why?

Because the problem that homophobes and transphobes have against the two groups is one and the same, the breaking of traditional gender roles.

Being homosexual means an inherent breaking of prescribed gender roles and gendered scripts. So much of culture is focused on and based on heterosexuality and binary gendered scripts, so any deviation (including being homosexual and living as such) is fought against.

Homophobia has never been about the actual sex acts. Think about the 70s, 80s, and 90s, when people were making fun of gay people/laughing at them. Do you remember that many jokes about anal? Well, there might have been some, but the answer is no. The jokes were about the gender breaking. The feminine prancing gay man. The masculine lesbian woman. That breaking of prescribed gender roles is the thing.

So, that's why trans is included, because of all the letters in the acronym they break from their assigned gender roles the most, by choosing to the social and physical role of the other gender. They are going the other way, against societal prescription.

And we all fit together under that umbrella.

I don't get it at all Trans is not a sexuality. You can be a gay trans person, a bi trans persy, a straight transperson.

I think it makes as much sense having trans in with LGB as it does being with black rights and it annoys me greatly!

It's probably easiest to explain as "Billy's a twat with tickets to sell" tbh.