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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish census sex question

81 replies

Meagaidh · 26/11/2021 09:57

The Scottish census in March 2022 will not be collecting accurate data on sex. Its guidance to answering the What is your sex? question says:

If you are transgender the answer you give can be different from what is on your birth certificate. You do not need a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).

If you are non-binary or you are not sure how to answer, you could use the sex registered on your official documents, such as your passport.

A voluntary question about trans status or history will follow if you are aged 16 or over. You can respond as non-binary in that question.

The census is used to inform policy decision making in the areas of sex and health, equality monitoring and education. How can decisions be made on data that is not reliable?

An independent policy analysis collective in Edinburgh, Murray Blackburn Mackenzie, is challenging this, but Scotland's Census has said it won't be making any further changes.

MBM post to their Twitter account @mbmpolicy whenever they have an update and their webpage is murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/sex-and-gender-identity-data-in-the-census/. They also have much to say on the GRA.

There's very little in the Scottish press about this; I have only seen coverage in The Times.

This is a hugely important issue.

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CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 20:29

This actually makes me really really angry because while I disagree totally with gender> sex for certain situations.

When it comes to the lives of individuals. People who may be really struggling with things like severe depression, are homeless, are experiencing sustained harrassment from people who live near them etc. Related directly to their trans status.

How can trans groups possibly prioritise issues and target help? That's the reason they exist FGS.

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 20:16

Given the fact that MH issues are disproportionately prevalent in the trans community. There are issues with housing discrimination. Certainly violence esp towards TW from random horrible men when out and about. Are happening and have such an impact on the lives of those who experience them.

WHY across trans orgs is the NO INTEREST in routine collection of such valuable data?

No other group does this. Other groups if anything want questions/ data points ADDED so they can understand in more detail what's going on with the group they advocate for.

Taken away? So not available at all? Why?

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 20:10

Charlie that's what I find incomprehensible.

Groups working to improve things for certain groups in society always want data in order to understand what areas are a problem, whether it's a particular subgroup, location etc. And to support their efforts to find support, get coverage in press etc.

And it's all groups. Including the majority ones. All of them.

The absolute determination that data about the trans population is not recorded as a matter of course when it comes to so many important areas is incomprehensible.

The census, crime stats, NHS data, school data, and loads more. Things that cover whole population and feed into so much including govt policy.

Trans orgs would be able to see things like -

Are children with trans identities performing less well at school than others? If so, is it worse a particular subgroup? Parts of country, type of school, cities, trans girls Vs trans boys etc etc.

Detailed accurate analysis on the incidence of trans victims of crime. Incidence, TW/ TM/ NB victims. Whether there is a conviction. Masses of info.

  • NHS full picture of levels of MH issues, how severe, any areas where there's a high trans population meaning things like special clinics with specially trained HCPs. That could well be an attractive role for some trans people in the NHS as well and positive for patients.

I mean I could go on for yonks.

Why is the opportunity for all this data not just thrown away but actively fought against?

If Moira is reading still. Can you let us know why?

ANewCreation · 27/11/2021 19:49

Layla Moran?

Yep, problem solved..

Terfydactyl · 27/11/2021 19:11

It is an unworkable suggestion that someone in the census office/the computer should look at the sex box ticked 'female' on a census return and somehow discern for data and planning purposes that this is actually the census return of amalepersonwithouta GRC effectively lying about their biological sex because their gender identity is now, say, 'woman'.

Or maybe they could employ her (forgotten name) who can "see" gender, bet she'd be useful looking through about 3 million census forms to divine gender/sex from a tick box.

ANewCreation · 27/11/2021 14:23

Exactly this, Perking

Since the last E/W census, just a few short months ago, my oldest's gender identity has changed. (TW ->NB)

Their sex, needless to say, hasn't.

Good job then that I requested paper copies for the whole family and filled it in using everyone's biological sex in answer to the Sex Question.

Services/planning need to be based on them being a young adult male (reality/sex is immutable) not on a nebulous thing like a 'gender identity' which is evidently in flux - and may land anywhere in the 10 years before the next census (creativity)

It is an unworkable suggestion that someone in the census office/the computer should look at the sex box ticked 'female' on a census return and somehow discern for data and planning purposes that this is actually the census return of a male person without a GRC effectively lying about their biological sex because their gender identity is now, say, 'woman'.

and not a male person with a GRC who is legally 'female' but may still need to access services for prostate cancer

or a female person who actually is a woman and, without knowing what a gender identity is, thinks that she should tick that box as she recognises woman as the collective noun she uses for her sex

Or a detransitioner like Keira Bell who has a GRC stating she is legally 'male' but recognises she is female...

Much more relevant data to be gained from
What sex was recorded on your original birth certificate? M/F
Then a gender identity Question
If you have a gender identity and would like to have it recorded please indicate it here. Free text box.

PerkingFaintly · 27/11/2021 11:53

@RobinMoiraWhite

I don’t understand the perceived problem. If you want the number of birth biological males you take the male ‘sex’ figure where the gender question has been answered to indicate ‘no change’ and add the female ‘sex’ figure where the gender question has been answered to indicate a change. Simple in the extreme, as it would have been if the E&W census hadn’t been muddled by a change halfway through.
That's not true.

I've checked, the OP has quoted the census guidance correctly. Here it is again:

If you are transgender the answer you give can be different from what is on your birth certificate. You do not need a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).
If you are non-binary or you are not sure how to answer, you could use the sex registered on your official documents, such as your passport.
A voluntary question about trans status or history will follow if you are aged 16 or over. You can respond as non-binary in that question.

Note "could" not "must" use the sex registered on official docs.

This breadth of choice creates the following situation. Four completed censuses are received:

One has ticked "male" and "non-binary".
One has ticked "female" and "non-binary".
One has ticked "male" and not answered the voluntary question on gender.
One has ticked "female" and not answered the voluntary question on gender.

How many people with prostrates (ie who could get prostrate cancer) is that?

Because with those guidelines, it could be anything from 0 to 4.

Lovelyricepudding · 27/11/2021 11:36

What benefit is there is knowing the number who identify as female? It says nothing about transgendered provision, it says nothing about sex-related medical care or planning, it tells us nothing about sex equality....

Datun · 27/11/2021 11:34

What a storm in a teacup. The info will still be accurate as only about 0000000.1 of the population will be trans.

It's the ridiculousness of having to guess the number of trans people, and then using that to endorse your argument to not accurately record them!

And yes, complaints about waiting lists and not enough provision do seem a tad hollow when they go out of their way to ensure that it continues.

Rainbowshit · 27/11/2021 11:03

@CharlieParley

Actually, maybe you can explain this question I have about the strategy pursued here by trans rights campaigners, RobinMoiraWhite.

When I attended the parliamentary debate about the census question, it was clear that one, possibly the main, reason for the underprovision of the trans community was the lack of accurate data about their size. What we have is not up to date. We know we have around 400 GRC-holders and an estimate from Scottish trans organisations in 2003 that 40% of the trans community would not seek medical support and so not qualify under the original GRA. At a bare minimum then we know we have just under 700 members of the trans community living in Scotland. Many in Edinburgh and Glasgow, as this is a pattern repeated elsewhere (small numbers rurally, more in big cities where there is then also more support).

Of course, waiting lists for a first appointment of between 7 and 33 months for an adult referral tell us that we have a much bigger trans community in Scotland than just 700.

Just for Glasgow, in the 27 months to March 2021 there were adult 1068 referrals to the Sandyford clinic. Edinburgh will be the same. Numbers have been steadily rising since 2013.

For 2015, 16 and 17, we have 966 referrals to the children's and youth service. For 18, 19, 20 and 21 we have at least another 800.

If you add them all up, that's more than 5000 referrals across child and adult services over the last 8 years.

We're probably looking at 5000 to 10,000 medical referrals altogether, which is 0.1 to 0.2% of the total population. Add at least another 2000 to 4000 (that minimum of 40% who won't ask for a referral).

Yes, that's a tiny percentage and its far below even the more conservative estimates from Scottish trans organisations. But the prevalence of gender dysphoria in children which is used for planning purposes is much lower than that still. Around 6 in 100000 for children (0.006%) and for adults the prevalence rate of transsexualism is estimated (lots of different ones) variously as 1 in 10,000 for males and less than half that for females.

It's almost impossible for anyone to estimate, and the estimates we have are often based on referrals to a clinic, so they're not going to include those who are not going to or have not yet sought medical support.

Planners may well be underestimating need by a factor of 100. But in a stretched NHS, stressed economy and the fraught budgeting circumstances of the Scottish government mean that no planner can justify allocating the necessary ressources, whether that's the NHS or any other public service. Not without evidence of need and not when trans healthcare is just one of many struggling NHS services in Scotland.

And the census gave us a chance to rectify that. If I was running a trans rights organisation, I would have asked everyone to fill in the sex question as per birth sex or legal sex. Then encouraged everyone in my community to fill in the gender question accurately.

When the data is analysed, for the first time you'd get accurate numbers to argue with. Numbers that will impact provisions for the trans community for decades.

But no. Instead there's this insurmountable short-termism in play. An affront to self-identification. So the census won't capture even a fraction of the trans community. And for what? So you can win a debate in 2021 but ensure underprovision until 2051?

This!!! ^

There does seem to be an astonishing childish cutting off their noses to spite their faces attitude to the census amongst trans people.

If they want and need better services then surely we need accurate data. Deliberately answering the census questions in a way the underestimated the trans population seems pretty counter productive.

MiladyBerserko · 27/11/2021 10:46

" 0000000.1 "
Pffffffff. I think someone failed their O Grade Arithmetic

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/11/2021 10:34

Yes! The skewed thinking really does amount to cutting off noses to spite faces.

The childishness of it is only matched by the sheer spite of it!

Artichokeleaves · 27/11/2021 10:29

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Doesnt the census always rely on honest answers? Anyone ever had the census police visit to check their answers?

As I said the factual, mandatory questions have never/rarely been challenged before. Everyone knows what their sex is. The vast majority of people wouldn't, didn't play politics with those questions, especially as there are potential legal ramifications for doing so. Rare it may be but yes, I know a couple of people who have had their census data checked, it does happen.

But, as you are aware, you were briefly on at least one thread about it, the last census in England and Wales was traduced by many TRAs who deliberately lied and crowed about it on Twitter.

If I remember rightly you 'held a position' on their rights to do so, despite the clear explanations given in the much discussed guidance notes.

You also aren't blind to the ramifications of skewed data. You've been here on threads discussing that, you are an educated person, you know the issues. Don't be so disingenuous.

Not to mention with the endless media soundbites about how rotten trans healthcare etc is, you'd think there would be a connection between this and the need to know how many trans people there are in the UK to be able to predict need, allocate funding and services and solve that problem. If the point is solving the problem rather than having the problem and talking about it. It would also enable planning around the problem of a set number of people who feel entitled to arse about with the data for personal reasons.

But no, apparently it's people's rights to do what they want, cause problems, render the census pointless, and then moan about the lack of proper services. I'm really reaching the point of ffs grow up.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/11/2021 10:14

Doesnt the census always rely on honest answers? Anyone ever had the census police visit to check their answers?

As I said the factual, mandatory questions have never/rarely been challenged before. Everyone knows what their sex is. The vast majority of people wouldn't, didn't play politics with those questions, especially as there are potential legal ramifications for doing so. Rare it may be but yes, I know a couple of people who have had their census data checked, it does happen.

But, as you are aware, you were briefly on at least one thread about it, the last census in England and Wales was traduced by many TRAs who deliberately lied and crowed about it on Twitter.

If I remember rightly you 'held a position' on their rights to do so, despite the clear explanations given in the much discussed guidance notes.

You also aren't blind to the ramifications of skewed data. You've been here on threads discussing that, you are an educated person, you know the issues. Don't be so disingenuous.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 27/11/2021 09:18

@TarasCrazyTiara

What a storm in a teacup. The info will still be accurate as only about 0000000.1 of the population will be trans.
Of course you won't know that if you don't know how many of the population are transgender
Kendodd · 27/11/2021 08:55

Oh dear!
They need to include biological sex AND gender identity for a truly accurate picture.

Signalbox · 27/11/2021 08:49

Hopefully this will be challenged in the courts.

334bu · 27/11/2021 07:55

“It doesn’t matter if you lie a bit, the data doesn’t have to be super accurate” really is an astonishing position for anyone to take. The whole point is the accuracy of the data

Exactly this!

Sophoclesthefox · 27/11/2021 07:53

But no. Instead there's this insurmountable short-termism in play. An affront to self-identification. So the census won't capture even a fraction of the trans community. And for what? So you can win a debate in 2021 but ensure underprovision until 2051?

I’ve always wondered this, too, charlie. But it seems that Robin doesn’t care to answer, unfortunately.

And yes, FWIW, in 2011 in Scotland I had census checkers at my door who went through the forms with me in detail and in person.

“It doesn’t matter if you lie a bit, the data doesn’t have to be super accurate” really is an astonishing position for anyone to take. The whole point is the accuracy of the data Confused

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 04:30

England I'm sure it's illegal to lie on census.

(Could be wrong/ different in Scotland).

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 04:29

There are threads on this from when it came out a while back.

Big hooha.

England court challenge wording was changed

Scotland no change. Can't remember if court but definitely it was strongly challenged.

Those threads are full of interesting stuff.

Artichokeleaves · 26/11/2021 21:42

@334bu

*Doesnt the census always rely on honest answers? Anyone ever had the census police visit to check their answers?*

No, but then this is the first time the Government is actually encouraging people to lie when answering the census.

Quite.

Frankly if it's going to be a work of fiction and we're all good with this, then let's employ David Walliams to sit in an office and knock up it up, and we'll save a lot of taxpayer time, money and effort. It will be far more entertaining and probably about as much use. The census costs a lot to administer and process; there is absolutely no point if it no longer serves a purpose for the populace because some of the populace feel that their personal sense of self is more important than provision of services and planning for all.

Frankly I think it's rather selfish.

IsitM · 26/11/2021 21:38

“Doesnt the census always rely on honest answers? Anyone ever had the census police visit to check their answers?”

Yes, we did have a visit from someone who wanted to check the answers. It does happen.

334bu · 26/11/2021 21:21

Doesnt the census always rely on honest answers? Anyone ever had the census police visit to check their answers?

No, but then this is the first time the Government is actually encouraging people to lie when answering the census.

RobinMoiraWhite · 26/11/2021 21:12

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

That's true. As with the E+W census it also relies upon people giving honest answers. Something the sex question has never been subject to before.

We know that, in defiance of the guidelines and calls for common sense, many TRAs and maybe some trans people, filled in that sex question falsely. They crowed about it all over social media for days.

Doesnt the census always rely on honest answers? Anyone ever had the census police visit to check their answers?
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