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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Schoolgirls rejecting mixed toilets over boys’ bad behaviour - Times Scotland

164 replies

Igneococcus · 26/11/2021 06:39

In the "no shit Sherlock" section:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7f12e196-4e3c-11ec-9bc6-5abf98655bc4?shareToken=8750246678967bdd6accb8b86d6f553f

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Brigetterose · 03/02/2022 19:33

Oo thank you sorry i didn't realise how to use this or that it commented under a larger separate post apologies to all

Hoardasurass · 03/02/2022 18:31

@Brigetterose if you ask in the scotsnet page you should get the advice that your looking for

Brigetterose · 03/02/2022 18:18

Don't know If this is correct place or anyone from kelso on here perhaps ? Relocating to scotland hopefully this year and wondering if it's a good move to make. As we have literally just YouTube the area as we live in Ireland. Any help or advice cheers

Zandathepanda · 28/11/2021 12:42

From 2016:
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmwomeq/91/9105.htm

Zandathepanda · 28/11/2021 12:29

One pupil is raped whilst in school for each school day in the U.K. That’s the figures from several years ago that are actually known about so I expect it’s higher.
As an ex-teacher I was thinking about the schools I worked in and thinking where these rapes and other sexual assaults could happen.
It is pretty grim but obvious to realise what will happen to these figures when mixed sexed toilets are introduced.
I don’t know about the statistics for people found dead in public toilets but it tends to be the disabled/ mixed sex ones as people go to the toilet when they are feeling ill and no one can see they have collapsed as the gap in doors is there for safety, ventilation and easier mopping.

RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 12:18

@334bu

*Trans and non binary children are every bit as deserving of good safeguarding practice also*

Absolutely and if a few extra single entry mixed sex toilets are provided , there is no reason not to provide them with the same alarm system as you would find in a toilet for the disabled. In that way the single sex provision can remain as is, the toilets for the disabled are not being inappropriately used and those who do not wish to use their own sex's facilities have a place which they can use safely.

I was meaning more that it’s not good safeguarding to put a female trans or non binary pupil into the boys toilets. She doesn’t deserve less safeguards than any other child just because she identifies otherwise.

I do think it’s wise to have some mixed sex provision as stand alone toilets, but individual ones spaces around school not to replace single sex options as they always have been. Putting a row of them in place as if they are standard isn’t good safeguarding imho. I could imagine my own autistic dds might prefer stand alone toilets for changing pads etc initially as very anxious and self conscious about these things. But the necessity of a few stand alone toilets shouldn’t replace the usual single sex options we’ve always had.

Whatwouldscullydo · 28/11/2021 12:07

Isn't one of the pre requesits of these toilets, that u can open from the outside.

That's going to require a staff member full time to ensure no ones letting themselves in. If there's not staff to spot kids being bullied at break times then how is there staff for this

Whatwouldscullydo · 28/11/2021 11:58

Not just girls either.

Disabled students also thrown under a bus because. In fact every child with any other protected characteristics is negatively impacted.

All so no one has to say no.

Changecountetextraordinaire · 28/11/2021 11:37

I'd be interested to know if transgirls want to use the boys facilities. Doubt it. I'd also like to know how many trans kids there are in these schools. The safety of girls is being damaged so that a minute number of people have their feelings validated.

Whatwouldscullydo · 28/11/2021 11:35

And why on earth should a disabled student have to be left on the floor having fallen while staff are dealing with situation they caused ?

It may not mean the actual facilities are being inappropriatly used but resources (staff) will be won't they. Because something that could be prevented is now taking staff away from.someome else. And that someone else.is.left In an undignified unnecessary situation

334bu · 28/11/2021 11:34

I think the alarms shouldd primarily be there to ensure that a student who takes ill in an enclosed locked room, can call for help.

Whatwouldscullydo · 28/11/2021 11:30

If you are concerned enough to fit them with rape alarms then you know exactly why the sex segregation is required in the first place Confused

334bu · 28/11/2021 11:25

Trans and non binary children are every bit as deserving of good safeguarding practice also

Absolutely and if a few extra single entry mixed sex toilets are provided , there is no reason not to provide them with the same alarm system as you would find in a toilet for the disabled. In that way the single sex provision can remain as is, the toilets for the disabled are not being inappropriately used and those who do not wish to use their own sex's facilities have a place which they can use safely.

Helleofabore · 28/11/2021 11:19

RedCarpetRebellion

I have been holding back so as not to continue the derailment. But, you have written the post I have been composing and deleting for the past day.

MsGoodenough · 28/11/2021 11:00

6. Just thought. Could the info from the orgs say to do it say no need for consultation as law? Could it say that due to transphobes and bigots everywhere consultation will lead to harm to trans children? That if they get complaints after the fact, they will be from regressive elements who want trans children to suffer? Given general approach of this movement pretty much I given I think

Absolutely this is the mo. On the pshe forums I'm on. SsA and Transgender Trend are immediately dismissed as transphobic. Schools recently got contacted by the new organisation Genspect. Teachers went on the forum to ask if they were 'legit'. It was found they had retweeted SSA and TT and that Graham lineman had written is support of them, ergo they are transphobic and their materials are in the bin.

All thinking seems to have been outsourced to Stonewall. I'm feeling pretty despairing. Parents really are the best hope for change.

BlameItOnTheBlackStar · 28/11/2021 10:47

To be fair that was a great post though!

RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:46

Gad sorry for feeding into it.

RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:40

@Whatwouldscullydo

Therefore, given the small size of the transgender community, a few additional mixed sex single entry toilets could be provided , if funds are available. However, this should not be done at the expense of existing single sex provision

But again this raises the question that is never answered , given the safety issues that single entry enclosed cubicles present and its only thr accessible toilet that has the alarm pull, why are trans children not entitled to the same level of safeguarding as other children.

It is not OK to place trans children who still have a sex regardless of how they feel about that in dangerous situations to avoid being a adult and saying NO.

This ^^

Trans and non binary children are every bit as deserving of good safeguarding practice also.

RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:30

[quote TarasCrazyTiara]@Helleofabore

I’m not telling you your out of the touch with majority thinking on trans toilet stuff, which you would know if you read my posts instead of just imagining anyone who disagrees with you in any way is on the other side in your ideological “battle”. That shows very insular thinking on your part.

What I said was conflating trans activists as misogynists who were like old fashioned misogynists (it was someone else who posted talking about them in relation to the country) was absurd and laughable to most people and it was this kind of stuff that was out of touch with the majority (who wouldn’t have a clue what you were talking about).

Who you know from the country is irrelevant, I grew up in the country and know plenty of country people - that is also irrelevant. The reality is that people in the country and rural areas are by and large are more conservative on issues like this than metro areas. I have no idea why you would try to deny it. I’m not “sneering” at them at all, as you have no idea what my actual thoughts on it are other than thinking single sex toilets should stay.[/quote]
I didn’t conflate them.

Misogyny is misogyny, it can be varying types but it’s all the same thing at the end of the day.

You misread, accidentally or deliberately, and ran with offensive comments about ‘rural hicks’. Which would be out of touch when talking about anywhere, but especially the vast differences and variations within ‘rural hicks’ in Scotland especially.

The landscape is dramatically different within many areas of Scotland. There are massively wealthy land owners in some areas, spectacular country estates in some, old style crofts in others, conservation areas in others staffed by highly educated scientists, fishing villages in others, tourist b&bs in others, hiking or skiing resorts in others, locals who never leave in others, celebrities looking to hide away in peace in others, struggling farms in some, massively wealthy farm estates in others, racing yards, hunting yards, cross country estates, small cottages with a pony in a paddock in others, families who sell tiny London flats and move up to buy large family homes in others. And that’s before you look at the towns themselves. Which in the borders alone include some extremes of poverty after mill closures decades ago mixed with some incredible historical heritage in the likes of Kelso and Melrose. Full of a huge mix of people from those who never leave their home town and live for the common ridings to those who are famous writers or artists who run writers retreats. Being working class in Scotland very much comes with the expectation to go to university, to get an education to come home and benefit the community. And Scotland has some exceptional world renowned universities, including number 1 in uk league tables at the moment- St. Andrews.

The idea you would assume ‘rural hicks’ has anything to do with Scottish country life shows you have no idea what you are talking about and are jumping to ignorant conclusions.

What I was saying in the post you jumped on, that others understood just fine, that I further explained to you, was that there’s a level of common sense about biology that comes from growing up around country life and seeing how animals are born. But that this common sense doesn’t change that there’s just as much misogyny in these towns/country as anywhere else.

As other understood that just fine it appears as if you were looking to inflame an argument. And detract from the op.

RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:06

@Wbeezer

DS3s school has open plan toilets with a girls side and boys side, they are considering making them all gender neutral. DS3 already avoids using them as they are off a corridor, he has IBS and sometimes has to deal with wind and loud gurgling, smells etc. at school. He finds this v embarrassing but would find it excruciating to have to use a cubicle next to a girl. I will be reminding the school of the requirement to provide separate toilets under the equality act.
And the buildings regulation act says toilets in schools must be single sex or the individual cubicles with sinks inside. Some toilets should be this type, for several reasons, but from a risk assessment pov most should be standard single sex type with just partitions etc- if someone slips and falls others will realise, if a boy pushed his way in to a full door single sex type to attack a girl no one would know. Both boys and girls could be uncomfortable about the opposite sex using a toilet after them - girls worry about periods smelling, boys worry about other things like the post about ibs etc. All that personal stuff is less embarrassing with your own sex. And boys can be cruel about periods etc also.
RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:00

@2319inprogress

RedCarpetRebellion Your post was perfectly clear me!
Thank you.
RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 09:54

[quote ISaySteadyOn]@RedCarpetRebellion, unfortunately, the way our borough works I won't know which school she got into until March![/quote]
Can you check the ones that are likely and start addressing it with all of them?

Good luck either way.

DdraigGoch · 27/11/2021 23:21

[quote TarasCrazyTiara]@DdraigGoch

Country and rural people are less likely to be feminists than say metro dwellers. I don’t know why that would be surprising to anyone.[/quote]
Citation needed.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/11/2021 21:46

I find it really sad that it should be up to children to protest this. They have been so very badly let down by adults

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 21:39

I don't think it's realistic for a host of reasons to expect many to do that.

Sadly.

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