Anti trans for asking not to conflate sex with gender?

Men not Ken

@DadJoke women menstruate

Not ken

No, some of those people experiencing menopause are men. This approach literally prevents people conflating sex and gender by talking about the actual issue.

It is you who is conflating sex and gender
Menopause has nothing to do with gender, it is something which only happens to adult human females, because of their sex.

No, some of those people experiencing menopause are men

The time for men to worry when blood is pouring out of their penis is when it happens, not when it stops.

Honest to god, how did we get here?

Only women experience the menopause.

Pretzel logic.

Say something that isn't true, cannot possibly be factual and think that the ensuing discussion is a good thing.

You give yourself away so easily... literally!

And the logic reverse! Go on then what do you consider be the difference between sex and gender? How does calling some of the people who can menstruate men help avoid confusion?

Argh, mangled post- should have read “nonsensical, and more so with cases like yours where its not linked with menstruation at all”. Sorry.

Yeah! Call spiders fluffy fairy sweet peas and I'd still be set off by the way they move, or don't quite move, which is worse.

But hey! Brand new words, brand new therapy for the whole world. Everyone but those trying to square biological circles.

Also for helleofabore.

It’s not “inclusive”. None of this language mangling is “inclusive”. It’s about control. Say the words, even if you don’t believe them.

Sarah
“Fear of dogs I get, they can bite.
Fear of spiders and snakes is probably an evolutionary safety mechanism.
Fear of biology is just weird.“

And if people are so afraid of things like spiders and dogs that life becomes difficult for them, they get psychotherapy. And they don’t think changing the name of ‘dog’ will take away whatever it is about dogs that frightens them. It

There are so many reasons why 'people who' is the wrong approach. I actually agree. If some females feel excluded from an event that is meant to include the widest demographic of people including those who may have language barriers, then those females who feel excluded probably need a session that is unique to their needs anyway.

I am all for a session for those 'men' who need to have a session just for them since they are so very offended by 'women' needing an iota of humanity to discuss something that we have experienced so much shame for.

Tell you what DadJoke, how about you tell us just why after decades of being told by male doctors that I should just get over my menstrual woes, because every other woman has them too and seems to cope, should I listen to anyone else try to restrict how I want to be addressed.

How kind are you to come and tell me when I have had decades and decades of neglect from male doctors about an issue that only effects females, that I should be ashamed to ask for a modicum of acknowledgement that it is actually ok to discuss menstruation and the significant impacts on my life?

Because someone in my workplace might not like to acknowledge their sex.

Doesn't seem to be kind at all. Seems to me to just be more of the same misogynistic attempt to shame women for finally discussing an issue that has been swept under the carpet for ever. Well done!

They should talk about women or 'biologically female' which includes trans men.

Trans women do not experience menopause no matter what they claim.

If someone feels 'unsafe' because of female biology they need therapy.

Fear of dogs I get, they can bite.
Fear of spiders and snakes is probably an evolutionary safety mechanism.
Fear of biology is just weird.

I had a sub-total hysterectomy in my 30s. Lost the uterus, kept the ovaries. No longer menstruated but didn't go through the menopause for another 14 years.
How can "people who menstruate" be construed as an inclusive term in my case?

Thanks, scrollingleaves. I am just back from a fruitless trip to the chemists where they have told me that my HRT is out of stock, and they don’t know when it will be back. my tetchiness about that was not improved by immediately seeing a man finger wagging about how “people” experience the menopause. So nice to sit on the sidelines and lecture like that. How cosy. How completely devoid of understanding.

@Sophoclesthefox
Your point is excellent.
Special needs in either case.

DadJoke

The reason why transmen experience the menopause, is because they are biological females.
Gender is a social construct, whilst biology is scientific fact.

Even if it were the right thing to do ideologically to combine women and trans men into the group of “people who menstruate” (and for the record, I do not agree that it is), it is not the right thing to do practically.

These will be different, and possibly contradictory experiences, depending on what levels of hormonal and surgical intervention have happened.

I’ve had a chemical menopause at 35 and the real thing at 42 and they were completely different experiences. Women who experience premature ovarian failure won’t necessarily be served by a workshop looking at natural menopause. Trans men who experience chemical or surgical menopause maybe in their twenties or earlier don’t have the same medical issues and needs as women in their fifties.

Vaginal atrophy caused by testosterone and vaginal atrophy caused by menopause will be quite different. Testosterone is used as as HRT for the menopause, but clearly a trans man and a menopausal woman won’t be having the same conversation about doses, frequency, side effects etc, will they? The conversation around menstruation would be happening on different planets.

It is perfectly fine to target a workshop about the menopause at women and solely at women, and perhaps if trans men need a workshop on trans related hormonal issues, they could crack on and set that up.

I’m willing to bet that the trans men being fought for here were theoretical, though.

Stay strong, Op, you’re not wrong.

The only thing you can say about women these days is that they have a penis. Anything else and it's 'transphobic'.

Fucking sick to the back teeth of this fucking mess.

“DadJoke
Some people experience menopause, and I guess this event was for people who experience menopause. Some of those people are women, and some of them are men.”

All of those people who experience menopause (a biological phenomenon) are women ( a biological group) Hence the use of ‘women’ to name those people in this context.

This is why conflating sex and gender is an issue. The menopause is a biological process only experienced by the female sex. It is not experienced by the male sex.

Yes, we absolutely can have that, and just as they know their bodies so do you, and I guess you have no objection to being referred to as a person.

Did you miss Nancy Kelley's interview on WH then? Additive language is the Stonewall recommendation now that women pushed back on having the word 'mother' erased. I can link you up to her words if you like.

So, yes. We can be angry about an event for us being labelled as 'people who'.

It is inaccurate and frankly, it is simply obscuring one of life's natural processes that women have been made to feel shame about for a millennia. It shows a distinct lack of knowledge about female's lives to be censuring women who are upset about having this subject further obscured through use of language about exactly who suffers during this process.

Trans men do not undergo medical interventions experience menopause.

Many women don't experience menopause. People who experience menopause is both factually correct and inclusive

As a woman going through menopause right night, fuck off with the 'some women don't experience menopause' line to fit your ideological thinking. And I have been going through it for a lot fucking longer than that supposed average of seven fucking years of perimenopause.

The ONLY people who experience menopause are females. If those females who have identified as anything other than woman cannot handle being referred to using additive language, then that is their issue to deal with. May I suggest some better mental health support.

So, please take your shaming women who have medical conditions so that they do not experience menopause elsewhere too. It is highly offensive. But you have been told this repeatedly on this board over time.

Trans men are men, and they know they are men. They also know their own bodies. That has nothing to do with including them as people in this event.

If they know their own bodies, then they know they are female and as only adult human females ,AKA women , can go through the menopause , then the inclusive term is women.

Oh god. The what about women who don't menstruate / experience menopause trope.

Stop it. It's so old had, ludicrous, and we really don't have to continue engaging with such claptrap.

Take it elsewhere, FFS!

Trans men do not undergo medical interventions experience menopause.

Many women don't experience menopause. People who experience menopause is both factually correct and inclusive.