Anti trans for asking not to conflate sex with gender?

instead of having a meltdown because it's inclusive.

Could you be any more misogynistic?

What is inclusive about including males in these events? What is inclusive about changing the language to being gender neutral when additive will work.

Seriously, did you not hear Nancy Kelley from Stonewall discuss the new approach SW is taking with this language now? You are showing that you are out of date with your censorship.

And I mean large dose of Testosterone used for making significant changes to the body characteristics.

Menopause is something which deserves to be addressed and those people who experience it, men or women should be included, instead of having a meltdown because it's inclusive.

But then again.... maybe DadJoke, it is also a good time for the presenters to do a segment at the end with the risk factors of those females who go through very early menopause... you know. Like those who take testosterone that leads to atrophy and requires hysterectomies.

Did you know DadJoke that the earlier that females have their ovaries removed the massive increase in early dementia. I mean, very early dementia and a very early risk. I heard it on BBC 4 last year and have not found much about it since because they are doing the studies now I believe.

So, it probably is a bit late for some, but if it makes one female think again about the significant effects of testosterone that is rarely talked about for females and not progress to using testosterone or to stop taking it. Well... that would be a good thing.

I have read your posts and seen some of the early sensible replies, but not had time to read many.

I would respond discussing the impact to data and long-term research. Treatments to support women through the menopause (eg HRT) are designed for the female body with all that entails. The testing and research relies on accurate information. It doesnt matter how someone identifies at that point. The key part for treatment is that they were born female.

If someone takes medication and has a reaction and it is reported that they are male, or answers questions about the menopause & symptoms claiming to be a man it muddles the data. You can only have the menopause if you were born female. This is why the accurate reporting of sex (male/female) is critical.

I feel the same way about Prostate issues being reported by "women". That again cannot be. Only men have prostates.

Data collected now will drive research for generations in the future. I would hate for a medical issue to be de-prioritised or for a research line to be funded that was unnecessary because the "data" was showing that both men and women experience it.

I think it must be really hard to feel so incredibly triggered by the word “woman”. It is really likely to come up a lot in a lot of contexts, especially now when Stonewall has stated that it is ok to use .

Obviously it will be necessary to use the word woman in the normal workshop as it just would be too confusing for most people who aren’t up to date with the latest linguistic knots around this. As DadJoke might know from own experience, your brain can be a bit fuzzy in menopause and it really isn’t the time to start learning non essential linguistic reasoning which not is work related.

I wonder if there could be a special workshop for the people who couldn’t bear to hear the word woman? In that workshop “woman” could be replaced my “poppet”, “person” or maybe “being” as the latter would be truly inclusive?

I think it also could be a good point to have some drop-in sessions with mental support for people who find the word “woman” extremely triggering. I used to have a spider phobia. I found that CBT helped. Maybe it could help here as well?

Are the few of those women who identify as trans men, or identify as non binary, upset or triggered by the word woman? It has nothing to do with the gender of the trans men or non- binary women.

It is a made up problem in their own minds if they find the word women repulsive or upsetting to them.

Quite and I have no patience for their nonsense.

Surely this just needs one or two sentences at the beginning of the talk and then the talk can carry on without using super opaque and frankly irrelevant language. Something like. ´Menopause is a biological process experienced by the female sex - so all women except transwomen and individuals with certain medical conditions that can prevent menarche in the first place, like Turner’s syndrome, and also transmen and any non binary persons of female sex. Then another sentence suggesting transmen may need specific advice. ´Transmen may go through artificially induced menopause much earlier than women would typically experience menopause naturally, due to cross sex hormone treatment. We recommend transmen seek advice from their medical team, as the processes and medical therapies described in this talk may not be a good fit for them.´ Then something like, ´because this talk is primarily aimed at women (or cisgender women if you fucking must.) and non binary people who are of female sex, we will use the words ´woman’ and ´female’ interchangeably during this talk’. So all genders have been acknowledged, everyone knows who is concerned and all the biological males can either go and spend their time listening to something else that’s actually relevant to them or they can shut up and listen to a female centric talk without trying to talk about themselves.

[quote Theeyeballsinthesky]@Sophoclesthefox I assume tbh that dad is bored at work on a Friday afternoon and thought they’d come here in the wind up

I mean no man would be so arrogant as to presume to lecture women about a biological experience they are literally unable to go through would they??

If you’re not on the wind up dad, I assume you also devote as much effort going on to mens forums where they discuss prostate cancer for example & lecturing them about being kind and explaining that women have prostates too[/quote]
Let’s hope so! Inclusion is so very important, it would be terrible if anyone was left out of being scolded.

I am sure that DadJoke either is going through menopause or is likely to go through menopause. I don’t think that DadJoke would be so uneducated as to comment on the lives experience of all of us who are going through this at the moment - unless DadJoke was as well .

It is so true with the flooding issues and the gender neutral toilets Helle. It doesn’t work at all does it?

Many women don't experience menopause.

Dadjoke, did you realise that if a woman never gets to experience menopause in her life, it means she died before reaching that stage in the life of being a woman? Quite a nasty thing to say.

All women, hopefully, get to live to experience menopause. Even though it looks like hell, seeing the pre menopause stage I am in is crap already.

@Sophoclesthefox I assume tbh that dad is bored at work on a Friday afternoon and thought they’d come here in the wind up

I mean no man would be so arrogant as to presume to lecture women about a biological experience they are literally unable to go through would they??

If you’re not on the wind up dad, I assume you also devote as much effort going on to mens forums where they discuss prostate cancer for example & lecturing them about being kind and explaining that women have prostates too

Maybe DadJoke has symptoms of menopause at the moment. I do and I feel pretty awful. I also have flooding issues. Rubbish!

This is me today too. I tell you, when you cannot leave the house for flooding issues, I am not sure how I would cope in an office where everything is now gender neutral toilets.

You know that's codswallop.

5O% of people going through menopause experience specific side effects *

So, as men and women undergo menopause that's half the population.

50% of women though - that allows a more precise understanding of the needs.

• made up % for illustrative purposes only

You know this. It is logic. It does not require sustained doublethink.

Again.

Twaddle!

@DadJoke
Re: people being the best word to replace the word ‘woman’ when discussing the menopause
51% of the population are women, not ‘abstract’ people.

Are the few of those women who identify as trans men, or identify as non binary, upset or triggered by the word woman? It has nothing to do with the gender of the trans men or non- binary women.

It is a made up problem in their own minds if they find the word women repulsive ir upsetting to them. Do they not think it is alarming for women the world over to lose the word that describes them? How narcissistic.

Maybe DadJoke has symptoms of menopause at the moment. I do and I feel pretty awful. I also have flooding issues. Rubbish!

DadJoke, are you also going through menopause at the moment? Hi 👋 in that case.

What on earth makes you think you have the remotest qualification to tell a board full of women how we ought to speak about menopause, dadjoke?

Only women experience menopause. If men and women experience menopause, but “gender” has nothing to do with it, then you’re saying that men-by-sex (XY males) experience it, which is an obvious nonsense. But if “gender” has nothing to do with it men-by-gender (xx females) obviously aren’t included either, so your claim is nonsense again.

It doesn’t even make sense using your own logic.

Just stop.

Menopause is awful.

DadJoke, have you gone through menopause or are you likely to go through menopause?

Tedious.

Trite.

Twaddle.

“DadJoke
No, some of those people experiencing menopause are men. This approach literally prevents people conflating sex and gender by talking about the actual issue.“

Trans men are a gender identity. Women are a biological entity.

Putting women and trans men together as ‘ people’ experiencing menopause, conflates sex and gender.

This approach literally prevents people conflating sex and gender by talking about the actual issue.

And then when males turn up at the event concerned that they haven't yet had menopause or what is this new thing that all people have, are they needing support too... and make the females feel uncomfortable to discuss their issues, that is quite fine with you too eh DadJoke?

Anything that makes women feel that they cannot actually discuss their needs is rather ok with you I take it then?

You simply cannot see anything past your own prejudiced agenda which on this thread is actually not making a menopause event a place where females can attend and have dignity and privacy.

That is what happens when males push for gender neutral language or to forced themselves into the definitions of words that actually exclude them to suit their agenda. And some females who, frankly, are solely focused on themselves and not on the entire sex class of people who fall under the words that they wish to redefine.

Menopause mostly affects women who are at an age where they are generally experiencing not just sexism (which is nothing new) but now ageism in a world that seems to be getting worse for how they treat women of that age group.

And here you are with your censoring and censuring.

Tell us DadJoke, what personal experience do you have with menopause again?

Ken doesn’t menstruate either