Anti trans for asking not to conflate sex with gender?

Whatever his motivation, his opinion is irrelevant

You seem to be annoyed that some posters are annoyed about something you are unaware of.

There have been many posts about the changes in NHS guidance, the changes in language around breastfeeding, midwifery, female cancers, not to even start on the politicisation of the word 'woman' - see Keir Starmer and others recently stuttering over whether it is right to say only women have female anatomy!

Sorry. To be clear - some of us were stating that ‘of course we can use the word woman’, the poster was the one telling us that that was inappropriate and to use ‘people who…’. And to stop censuring and censoring women’s language that actually has no impact on him at all.

Well in the later half of this thread, there was a male who was remonstrating women over using the word woman. In fact, said he felt it was just easier to use ‘people who..’ and told us that was the ‘inclusive’ approach.

And we were, of course, updating dadjoke that they were now out of step with stonewall’s new direction, thanks to the push back on erasing the word ‘mother’ to use only gender neutral terms.

Ok @Blibbyblobby, without singling out people who seemed very upset about it, I'm not sure that is universally understood.

@MurielSpriggs

But some posters are angry that somehow women are not allowed to call themselves women any more

Oh we know we can still call ourselves "women", it's just that "women" now means something completely different which makes it utterly useless for the important purpose it previously served.

I'm not angry that I can't use specific word W-O-M-A-N, I'm angry that its appropriation by gender ideology means there is no collective noun for the half of humanity that deals with the social and physical reality of being female.

Without pre-existing knowledge of both female human biology and the cultural references

This is the key thing isn't it? All the so-called (but really anything but) "inclusive" language relies on the fact that behind the scenes everyone does actually know which set class they belong to and what's normal for that group. It's just that to comply with gender ideology we are never allowed to name those sex groups out loud so all public discourse about actual sex-based needs ends up using the amorphous "some people in group X and some people in group Y..."

Thst works fine for the transitional (no pun intended) generation who do know what sex they are and what goes along with it even if they politely pretend not to, but will fall apart if we actually reach gender nirvana where everyone from birth is just an individual collection of "person who..." features with no overarching context.

Why are you so invested in women's biological functions and the language they use to describe that? It doesn't involve you

I do not know about Dad's motivation but males who identify as women are very invested in the idea that the word " women" should be divested of any reference to the female reproductive role as it excludes them. If women = adult human female, then where does it leave them.

Many thanks for the summary @Doubletoilandtrouble, and I can see that hackles have been raised. I think some of language used in these contexts (eg "menstruators") is awful. Erectile dysfunction is a good comparison.

There may well be many genuine grievances in all this. But some posters are angry that somehow women are not allowed to call themselves women any more. I'm not even aware of this sort of demand coming from the crazier corners of Twitter, never mind the usual suspects of Stonewall etc.

You could certainly say "most women and trans men" - I would have no objection to that, but "people" is easier

Why are you so invested in women's biological functions and the language they use to describe that? It doesn't involve you. Women dont care about your objections or opinion on this.

@MurielSpriggs

You came in quite late in the discussion, I think that some posters here already were quite upset and it came across in our posting.

A woman was upset over how her work proposed to discuss menopause and I believe there were male people suggesting “people who go through menopause”.

I did a long post this morning about how horrific menopause can be, physically and mentally. It is also something I felt ashamed of for a long time and was reluctant to discuss with others. In my opinion we had a discussion going on here how a work place could encourage this discussion and how the target group (99% women) can be more comfortable to discuss it.

I specifically stated that transmen were free to come up with a description which felt relevant to them.

In bursts someone I first thought was a woman but who turned out to be a biological male. This poster (with zero lived experience on this) proceeded to lecture us about inclusivity.

In this lecturing, language which a disabled poster considered ableist was used by the male. The disabled poster was really upset. Another poster who worried that her daughter would be unable to understand the terms proposed by this intruding male was completely ignored. Screenshots from transmen objecting to the initial terms proposed by the male poster were ignored.

In the end this male poster grudgingly conceded that he/(they?) “found it acceptable” to use “women and transmen”. This is still language about a condition where this poster has zero lived experience. And terms which will never apply to him (them?).

This is why some posters are sarcastic. And why I did my comparison with erectile dysfunction above.

And I don't think ad hominem means quite what you think it does.

As in telling DadJoke he can't have an informed opinion in issues around the experiences of female biology are not fallacious. They are rooted in his male physiology.

I feel the entire point of educational workshops is not to assume participants have previous knowledge.

It's not like sex itself is going away. We will still suffer both deliberate and unconscious sexism and we will still be disadvantaged by navigating a society structured around male as default. It's just that we will lose the ability to say clearly "this happens to US and it doesn't happen to YOU, and that is not ok".

Would you tell any other oppressed group they cannot have a name for themselves that themselves alone?

You've very much misunderstood.

A thread full of outrage at strawman arguments and ad hominems from what I see when I last contributed!

No one is being told they can't describe themself as a woman, unless I've very much misunderstood.

Ok, I assume that is settled then.

I will try to find a forum where men discuss erectile dysfunction. I will burst in and introduce myself as a woman and tell them that they are being horribly non-inclusive.

I will let them know that my preference is for them to call themselves penis people with erectile dysfunction. But I will say that I will be completely ok with them saying that they are men as long as they in every sentence say “men and transwomen”.

DadJoke, given your commitment to inclusion, is there any particular forum you can recommend where men (and transwomen) discuss erectile dysfunction?

'Some' women....

ffs, this is sex based to the point that if a biological female does not menstruate or does not menopause it is a medical problem that needs investigation.

No, I won't be pretending that this is not something that affects all women. Women and (TM/NB/whatever other words) will do fine. The 50% of the human race who are female are affected by this, we get to choose the frigging words for it. The other 50% are going to have to get over themselves.

Are you admitting that you were being unreasonable?

I think it should be ‘people who may or may not have ejaculated but have the body formed to do so’.

Artichokeleaves, I think the phrase you're looking for is "person who experiences ejaculation".

“Some women and trans men” is perfectly reasonable as I said earlier, and if it assuages gender critical peoples’ irritation too, that’s great.

And for the record, no. I will not be using unsexed language for an absolutely fundamental sex based need for women, because some male people find my biological reality distressing. I find menopause bloody distressing. I find male people demanding I frame my life, thoughts and self around their needs outrageous in its entitlement. #notyourmum They need to build their ability to tolerate other people having needs, wishes, feelings and choice of language too, as well as require it of others.

Women and... (whatever labels TM and NB people would prefer)