Anti trans for asking not to conflate sex with gender?

The biological reality remains. We just don’t have the words to accurately describe it.

Also, all the lols at “no one is saying people can’t call themselves women”, when the “people” who are getting the management buy in, setting up, recruiting for and running these workshops, probably to benefit themselves as well as others, are being told that the descriptive word that fits who they are and who their workshop is for is verboten. So, yeah, they are being told that calling themselves women isn’t enough, or isn’t correct, or doesn’t meet someone else’s standards.

Re-labelling it “people who experience menopause”

It's fucking insulting as well, as if menopause is on offer as an experience you can buy off the shelf like a Skydiving Day.

If the poster who so vehemently believes trans men are men then presumably they will be encouraging all those trans men of their acquaintance to pop off to the Doctors to have their prostate checked as per the recent campaign aimed at men regarding prostate cancer and if not, why not?

If the poster in question disagrees as vehemently with that campaign as they do with on here with us regarding language used around issues that only affect one of the two biological sexes I presume they have made their very strong feelings known to the organisers of that campaign and insisted that they from hereon use the inclusive (but wholly exclusive and dehumanising) language they are attempting to force on us. No doubt they will be thrilled and pat themselves on the back if and when the language around prostate cancer changes with the resultant drop in men being screened early causing the increase in men suffering said cancer.

Like you Doubletoilandtrouble I have no patience for those parroting this nonsense, I have even less when it comes out of the mouth of someone who has no skin in the game and never will have.

No man gets to dictate to me what words I want used to describe the processes of the biology I was born with, their opinion is less than worthless.

If we normalise 'people that will go through the menopause', how will anyone know if they will go through the menopause or not?

The answer to that is, of course people will know because they are women. Which begs the question, why can't we can just say women?

I think with menopause it is important to normalise it as well. The overwhelming majority (if not 100%) of women will eventually go through menopause. Still, it is something almost shameful, something that feels like it is open to discrimination and something that has a massive impact on our lives.

The more we can normalise this to something that is part of a woman’s lived experience, the better support we women can get. Re-labelling it “people who experience menopause” is really unhelpful in that context as well .

I blew a fuse over this as I have quite bad symptoms. And hearing that OP’s work erased the word “women” for menopause- as has several cancer charities I have seen made it worse. Muriel, you may not have seen this so much but have seen this a lot lately, it quite upsets me.

To further upset me, the dude came onto this thread, lecturing me about my own language and what I call myself.

And in another thread, a “woman” is charged with masturbating and waving her penis around. I can’t have the word woman to describe menopause or cancer, but the masturbator with they ejaculating penis is clearly a woman.

Not a good 24 hours.

Their projection of lack of agency onto women extends to the point where even in relationship to a workshop about menopause they picture us as passive consumers, not the driving force. That’s the root of the confusion in this thread. And as passive consumers, of course, we must shut up and accept what we’re given.

The argument seems to be “you can call yourself whatever you like, it’s other people who are organising events for you where they call you dehumanising names.

But actually the workshops we’re talking about are organised by women for women, and the workshop organisers are not allowed to say the events are for women.

There's a poster right on this thread encouraging women to accept calling themselves and being called 'people who....' as opposed to women.

The pressure to get the word 'woman' out of all documentation and for women to shut up and stop protesting this is bloody everywhere.

Yes it does happen. No, no one is exaggerating. Yes, it is really pissing some women off. The minimisation and telling women that it's not really affecting them is not helping anyone.

But what you're describing is a long way removed from someone saying that they're being told they can't call themselves a woman

Someone or women?

That's the problem. If men can call themselves women then the definition of women means anyone.

So when women say they want to be called women they are harassed, bullied and called TERF and ousted out of their jobs.

So women then are afraid to speak up and women as a distinct sex are completely wiped off the map.

And from a public information point of view, I think it's been pointed out earlier in the thread that a significant number of "people who menstruate" don't know what menstruation means, and call it something much more anglo saxon!

But what you're describing is a long way removed from someone saying that they're being told they can't call themselves a woman

Of course women can literally call themselves a woman when they are talking amongst themselves. But removing the word women from guidance / law / policy documents etc is extremely problematic for numerous reasons. Do you not agree with that?

Thanks for this. Off to look for that document. My NHS trust has written women out of its menopause policy (and maternity too... 🙄😠)

What on Earth is in it for women to allow themselves to be described as “people who experience menopause” rather than women?

There is zero in it for us, absolutely nothing, zilch, nada

As always no one ever talks about “people who experience prostate cancer”, the word men is always used

But what you're describing is a long way removed from someone saying that they're being told they can't call themselves a woman. There is a danger that legitimate grievances get discredited if manufactured ones get thrown into the mix. It sounds a bit like the more "enthusiastic" wing of Daily Express readers claiming that they're not allowed to call themselves English any more due to "political correctness gone mad", or whatever

And in this instance although I don't much like it either the description "people who menstruate" is
a) accurate (I'm guessing)
b) contains no words intrinsically offensive (partly because)
c) it's only being used in the context of a discussion about menstruation.

And within the context of that discussion you are quite at liberty to describe yourself as a woman! But some other females might not use that description for themselves.

Your daughter is not acceptable collateral damage. If it's not accessible to her, then it's not acceptable phrasing.

"Some Women"
Which women? Tall ones, brown haired ones?
How do we know which ones?

Thank you for all your kind words, these words must include disabled women, how can they not????

Why do men feel the need to mansplain and assume women need them to do this. What makes them like this. Is it nature? Born to dominate and explain even if they know nothing about a topic. Or is it how they're brought up.
I have even observed very young male, (children) doing this, I just wonder what exactly it is that makes them behave in this manner.

I don't understand dad's motivations, as, I am assuming, he is male, and identifies as so because of his name. So what does he get out of telling women how they are allowed to describe themselves. What's his interest.

I assume he is just an average man who thinks that because he is a man he knows better than a bunch of women with their silly little lady brains. If only we would listen to him and and his pearls of manly wisdom we would understand so much better.

What DadJoke needs to do is get down off his high horse, stop assuming he knows best, and listen to what we have to say. Perhaps start by thinking about why a man coming on to a feminist forum and telling women how they should be allowed to refer to themselves is inappropriate.

And then, DadJoke, how about answering my questions:

What sort of people does 'women' refer to in your phrase 'some women and trans men'? Who do you include in the term 'women'? Why do you include the word 'some' and not just say 'women and transmen'?

And if you believe transwomen are women, what is a woman?

Less mansplaining and more thinking and you might see what our issue is with this language manipulation.

But my understanding of this particular discussion is that it has nothing to do with telling women how they can describe themselves

Dad is advocating that women who menstruate should be described as people who menstruate. Not all women menstruate, but it's only women who do menstruate. He has been quite forceful in how he thinks women should describe their biological functions. I am interested to know why he is so invested in this.

The discussion so far, Muriel, suggests to me that I have to accept being described by others as a "person who experiences menopause" or being addressed as "people who experience menopause".

This is as important as whether I am allowed to describe myself how I like.

Hi @Beckert

So what does he get out of telling women how they are allowed to describe themselves.

He seems to have gone, at least temporarily!

But my understanding of this particular discussion is that it has nothing to do with telling women how they can describe themselves. They can absolutely describe themselves as women. (And clearly should!)

I do not know about Dad's motivation but males who identify as women are very invested in the idea that the word " women" should be divested of any reference to the female reproductive role as it excludes them. If women = adult human female, then where does it leave them

I understand this. I don't like it, but I understand the motivation.

I don't understand dad's motivations, as, I am assuming, he is male, and identifies as so because of his name. So what does he get out of telling women how they are allowed to describe themselves. What's his interest. He has no skin in the game. (I'm not asking you to provide an answer to that by the way, I'm just thinking, or more accurately, writing, out loud.) Maybe dad will tell me why.

I'd be interested to know if DadJoke has made his irrelevant feelings on this subject known to a menopausal woman in person. As one myself, I've no need to imagine the response.

There is a phrase often used in the disabled communities I'm a member of, which applies here: nothing about us, without us.

What it means, is that decisions that affect the disabled community should not be made without disabled people having the final say.

Look at what we have here. A person whose body is of the form that experiences ejaculation, telling menopausal women and women who will experience menopause in the future (provided we live for long enough), what language should be used in a menopause workshop. He is doing this as the self-selected, unelected representative of a group he does not belong to.

This situation fails the nothing about us, without us bench mark twice!