A trans-Identified BDSM fan/gun nut is now a senior leader at Girlguiding

Arabella

Using others is not harmless. It is wrong.

Having wholly inappropriate boundaries is wrong. Employing people in responsible roles with children who are not capable of understanding or prioritising safeguarding or putting the needs of children above their own is wrong.

It's wrong. Deal with it. The desires of an adult do not make all boundaries and responsibilities upon them go away. This whole 'queering' everything is purely and simply about trying to make exploiting others, behaving badly towards others and breaking the boundaries that protect others look something justifiable instead of bloody awful, unacceptable behaviour that everyone should be required to control. No excuses. No exceptions.

Well Arabella. I had not even thought about it from the perspective of that man's actions because I always associated it with my fault because I was wearing a short skirt (classic victim blaming, I know). I knew what he did was wrong, but in my youth, never thought through the lack of consequences for that man. (and we left the area within 12 months after so put it behind me)

An action that society viewed as 'harmless' back in the 90s because it was so common. It was the era when 'carry on' was still around.

There is a line that should not be crossed regarding kink and fetishes that some posters seem keen to redraw in favour of being allowed, and to be considered 'harmless'. That is the only meaning that I can draw from posting studies telling women to accept fetishists and kink because it is the 'norm'.

I'm sorry that happened to you, HelleofaBore. Men often use this kind of dynamic as a cover for sexual assault.

'naughty' 'cheeky' 'harmless' 'fun', if we name it or call it out we risk both our safety and social opprobrium.

'the worst thing about male violence is it makes men look bad'

It both excuses and minimises it in a predator's mind, justification for his actions, and exerts pressure on the victim to not complain or speak up. They can present abuse as kindness, indulgence, a joke, all sorts of things.

Women know this game.

Honestly. The manipulation is off the scale.

The Women Rights Network is highlighting the issue on Twitter - worth getting involved if you feel Girl Guides have to rethink their approach.
twitter.com/WomensRightsNet

If you actually had a real life person sniggering at breasts and trying to look up women's skirts, of course they shouldn't be involved in authority over children.

Yes, I remember a New Year's Eve event in my 20s when a bloke who was a friend of a friend was walking with my husband and me through a crowd single file. He took the opportunity to cop a feel under my skirt while we were walking through. Must of been all the more exciting because my husband was holding my hand in front of me. I was so shocked I didn't say anything until later.

Do I think that person should be in a position of caring with children? No fucking way. Do you barley? Really?

Because it was just like a 'carry on' film and one of your fetishes and kinks you keep posting about that apparently is all fine.

I mean, I even gave up my gym membership because that bloke was a regular at the gym I attended.

I think the word/concept 'harmless' is doing a lot of lifting in barley's posts.

It's an interesting one, because if one is compelled to use the word 'harmless' it seems to be a tacit admission that the thing is not suitable or appropriate.

One doesn't use the word 'harmless' in relation to, say, a post about making soup. Or a sewing badge. Or a woman in an evening outfit.

It's only paired with those things that are clearly inappropriate:

'harmless' fetish
'harmless' kink
'harmless' joke
'harmless' mistake

If we're discussing safeguarding, I think we need to strip out the enabling, persuasive, manipulative adjectives/adverbs. We need to look at the situation clearly, without trying to prettify it or dramatise it or ascribe motives to anyone. Safeguarding is all about not making excuses, not trying to twist a situation to show it in a different light. We just want the bare facts.

kink
porn
joke about sex
mistake

These terms need to be used directly, clearly.

And on that note, badminton invoking carry on films as an example of 'naughtiness', was irritating, and, deliberately missing the point again.

Those are films. And quite shockingly dated, at that. If you actually had a real life person sniggering at breasts and trying to look up women's skirts, of course they shouldn't be involved in authority over children.

Using carry on films as a demonstration of 'harmless fun', and equating it to the behaviour of the person who is the subject of this thread, is yet more manipulation.

“barleybadminton

Should we ban goths and punks from working with kids? They often walk around the streets wearing fetish inspired clothing. Who else should got caught up in this puritanical moral crusade? Is it twin set and pearls all round now and anything else is a safeguarding risk?“

The intention behind Goth’s and Punk’s clothing is not sexual.

Probably few punks or goths volunteer to be Girl Guide leaders anyway, as they tend to be of a younger age group.

Anything response involving “pearls “ on this site simply implies “Shut Up”

Spot on Arabella.
Why on earth some people think Mumsnet is an appropriate venue to parade their fascination for fetishes around children I cannot imagine.
As you say: we see you.

Arabella
I’m so sorry that happened to 10 year old you.
What a powerful post, thank you for your voice.

Great post ArabellaScott we’ve all had a lifetime of being subject to males* involving us in their fetishes and fantasies without our consent and it’s grim. We know what’s it like, is it any wonder we want to protect children from that and worse as much as we can.

*(obligatory NAMALT disclaimer)

Thank you Arabella.

We should shut up and let the men do what they need to do to get off. We should be kind about the failure of judgement, the several failures of judgement, the silly jokes, the cheeky jokes, the saucy outfit, the inappropriate comment, the comedy sex prop, the careless photos, the nicknames, the forgetfulness, the accidental slippage, the I-can't-help-myself, the he-didn't-realise, the all-good-fun the let's-not-spoil-it the hush, hush, hush. Don’t be a prude, don’t be a pearl clutcher, don’t moralise, don’t speak up.

Mocking women for talking about our history, for speaking our truth, for protecting our children?

I see you.

No, thank you.

Once you see it, you cannot unsee it.

Frotteurism. A minor incident from a lifetime of bullshit rape culture (cw):

As a 10 year old girl, on the tube in London, a man masturbated against me. He left semen all over my skirt. I had no idea at the time what had happened, only that I was very distressed, upset and felt ashamed.

Dirty old men do this type of thing and don't care about the girl, in fact they take pleasure in her suffering. A child has not even the slightest understanding of the dynamics at play.

As a 10 year old, one has no understanding of not only what drives sex but particularly abusive, non-consensual sex. It would be like trying to write an exam paper on a subject I'd never studied, in Arabic, blindfolded. It has taken a lifetime to unravel layers of shame, confusion, obfuscation and 'kink positive' narratives to realise exactly what happened to me that day.

Unfortunately I now have a far greater understand of exactly what is happening, that the man who did that knew exactly what he was doing. He was a predator, he did it on purpose, he sought it out, knowing that I had not consented, in fact because I had not consented and was not able to consent.

I see it now very clearly.

Predators are ubiquitous. They are common. They are persistent. It's banal, and something that women sadly learn to deal with. By the time women get to middle-age, we've had a fucking lifetime of being used like this: a girlhood beset by the predatory bullshit, that goes hand in hand with being abused for being frigid/prudish/slutty, then an adulthood putting up with more of the same along with the continual background hum of socialisation that continues to tell us we're wrong for speaking out about it, wrong for being angry, wrong for saying no.

We should shut up and let the men do what they need to do to get off. We should be kind about the failure of judgement, the several failures of judgement, the silly jokes, the cheeky jokes, the saucy outfit, the inappropriate comment, the comedy sex prop, the careless photos, the nicknames, the forgetfulness, the accidental slippage, the I-can't-help-myself, the he-didn't-realise, the all-good-fun the let's-not-spoil-it the hush, hush, hush. Don’t be a prude, don’t be a pearl clutcher, don’t moralise, don’t speak up.

Mocking women for talking about our history, for speaking our truth, for protecting our children?

I see you.

No, thank you.

Most reasonable people understand that an adults consensual sex life with other adults does not make them a safeguarding risk, most people have sex after all, and people enjoy all kinds of different things.

Hey barleybadminton remember that young man who liked to dress in rubber and wank in the toilets of the children's charity he worked at? How unproblematic was that for you? He did get fired, bet you think that a quiet word would have been enough...

Celebrating kinks around children should get one fired, and it has nothing to do with pearl clutching - it just means that some of us appreciate that adult sex practices do not concern children, and that we don't need more eroding of boundaries in the name of kink celebration.

Also, what utter rubbish to conflate fantasy and reality - so what if some people have fantasies of domination, that GG leader cares enough to post a picture. This is not a fantasy, this is the exhibitionism of a tacky and deluded individual who is protected by idiots that should actually be protecting girls.

Are you quite young, barleybadminton? Do you think you are the first to come up with all the fantasy crap? Because when I was young, most women were supposed to have rape fantasies - it was much more about asshole men fantasising that fact. So maybe you're not that young after all

it certainly should not be a career ending or even sackable offence to wear a leather dress and make a jokey post about being a Mistress on twitter.

And yet, as it is an indication of a habit, yes, I do believe that if a person is in a role requiring that degree of safeguarding, it should be the end of that person’s career as someone who has that relationship with children.

The lack of awareness of the posts combined with posts of small girls. The very fact those children were posted onto that site without their faces blurred when others are perusing sexualised content.

The gun handling.

The sexual nature of the posts. The exhibitionist nature of the posts.

That were available to the public to see.

The reference to tea bagging in their user name.

But….. we are just pearl clutching prudes for pointing it out.

You do know that anyone reading your continued 'whataboutery' can see what you have typed between the posts around it? And the main thing that leaps out is a strange determination to downplay safeguarding issues, the safety of kids, young women.

Why is that?

Why are you now asking 'what about' fashion, street wear and crying 'puritans!!!' ?

Nobody reading you is going to do anything but laugh... and then wonder why you are trying so hard? You've done a pretty good job of pointing out just how odd this particular male bodies person's actions have been

So just more minimising, more disparaging people expressing legitimate concerns as ‘being on a puritanical moral crusade’ wearing ‘twin sets and pearls’.

And no answering the fundamental questions raised.

No doubt we shall circle back to yet another ‘not like the cool kids’ disparagement. And we shall simply continue to point out the lack of knowledge about safeguarding and what is and isn’t appropriate for kids.

And good that Billie Eilish has raised the issue of how kink and porn harms kids. Maybe it will start to sink in that the normalisation of publishing your adult sex life on social media is, in fact, harmful to kids.

Especially when trying to make girls aware of consent and that much of what they see on social media is not what they should be expecting to perform as a teenager and that having sexual boundaries is ok.

Yes, some of the points Billie is making is very relevant.

Also need to bear in mind here, not one single piece of evidence of really awful boundaries, self awareness, sense of responsibility, having been able to understand, retain and follow safeguarding and of following known policies: but two . Totally different ones. This is not a person with sound judgement, the evidence is right there. Suitability is very, very questionable.

That behaviour should and will get you fired. Policies and standards aren't just written for fun, they have a purpose and a meaning, there are codes of conduct, there are responsibilities. If you breach them there are serious consequences, because your lack of judgement, boundaries, your ability to understand safeguarding is a very serious issue that should mean serious actions by supervisors. Safeguarding isn't just a nice word.

This is why GG are being regarded as having so utterly failed in their duties. Absolutely appallingly failed. Have you any idea what a serious case review would look like?

Adults cannot do whatever they feel like without consequences. If you want to be a free spirit who waves their exciting sex life in people's faces then you are choosing not to work in a position of trust, responsibility, or to be regarded as someone appropriate for many positions. In particular, you have chosen not to work with children. We don't know all the details of that teacher, but she will not have been patted on the head and given new fluffy handcuffs. She will have held on to her job by the skin of her teeth, there will have been major supervision involved and she's lucky to have managed it.

- it certainly should not be a career ending or even sackable offence to wear a leather dress and make a jokey post about being a Mistress on twitter.

How about posting photos of yourself brandishing a gun, offering to show your tits as well as posing with your whip in fetish gear?

You cannot wave your sex life and your gun fantasies all over the internet and still stay employed in a position of trust. You can't.

Well you can, she did, as did the female teacher outed by the Daily Mail for being a Dominatrix. Most reasonable people understand that an adults consensual sex life with other adults does not make them a safeguarding risk, most people have sex after all, and people enjoy all kinds of different things. You can certainly make the point that some people are a bit naive about social media, and this is something that can be easily dealt with with a quiet word or comprehensive social media policies which staff are made aware of and trained in - it certainly should not be a career ending or even sackable offence to wear a leather dress and make a jokey post about being a Mistress on twitter.