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Original poster

Therapist asking if I'm a man, woman or gender neutral.

135 replies

aweegc · 18/11/2021 08:24

I got a feedback form from my therapist (clinical psychologist) yesterday. It's about how I feel things are going and how I feel I've had things explained to me or been treated. All fine. I've had it before but this time the last question (it's not obligatory to complete the form but if you do then you can't skip question) the last one was "Are you a man / woman /gender neutral? The very last page had a text box for extra comments. I used it and went to town. My therapist doesn't write these forms, but I was really pissed off.

The thing is, I'm having long term trauma therapy and the majority of those traumas are due specifically to me being - not identifying as - female. Of course, I know all the politics around all this, I've seen this question on forms (or similar) a hundred times, I've had rape threats because of my biological understandings etc, but to have this question in a therapeutic setting has completely thrown me. Especially when male violence is about to become a big part of our work.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this post. I am trying to get out of a relationship that was 13 years of gaslighting. That feeling when you're being gaslighted and you're not sure what's going on, you're sure you're right but you no longer know where up is, who you trust etc is back.

If she believes that a man who identifies as a woman because he at least in part finds it sexually thrilling to be victimised by men IS a woman, then where do my experiences of being sexually victimised because I am a woman fit in? I feel that that man and I are definitely not the same, but I've just been categorised as the same in her eyes.

I actually ticked gender neutral and wrote - amongst other things - that I'm not that either but as I was forced to give an inaccurate answer, that was the one I chose.

If anybody can untangle my thoughts here I'd be most grateful. I'll be talking to her about the form next session anyway but I feel so "gaslighting confused" that I am not even sure I can explain why I feel gaslighted/gaslit. And it's extremely strange because I'm normally very, very clear about all aspects of this.

I'm also really fucking pissed off that because of a tiny minority of people - amongst whom the adult majority are men - my sex-based experiences and existence is undermined by no longer being sex-based.

Maybe I should have identified as "anything but biologically female" earlier in life, because then I'd not have been raped or sexually assaulted so much?

OP posts:
GreyhoundG1rl · 18/11/2021 16:23

@Mouseonmychair

This is a standard form and a standard question. Seriously some people look for offence in everything. Just fill out the question as it states from the 3 answers. I don't know anyone who would be unable to answer.
Since when is it a standard question?! After engaging with someone in therapy?? I'd certainly be able to answer, but I'd be incandescent at being bloody asked.
CanIPleaseHaveOne · 18/11/2021 16:20

In your shoes I would write an email to the therapist, and ask them to read it as a matter of utmost importance before your next session.

In it I would point out my (very valid) issues with the principal behind the question. I would include the fact that you have a lot of work to do with him/her that is mainly around sex based violence of an emotional, and physical nature.

With that in mind is the therapist able to set political theories/ideologies aside for the working sessions with you or do you need to look else where?

I would go in for a final session to discuss the matter, as I think it is important for you to make a choice based on a face to face. If you decide to continue - fine but if not, then I would not pay for the final session.

A physcologist (above all others) sending a form like that, containing that particular question seems to me to be lazy and ill thought out. Worth thinking about.

Shedmistress · 18/11/2021 16:10

Agree it seems like a reasonable question, which some people will want the opportunity to answer.

How is it reasonable to know whether someone is a man, woman or doesn't know what they are but just likes wearing random clothes? It is ridiculous.

Cheshirewife · 18/11/2021 16:06

Agree it seems like a reasonable question, which some people will want the opportunity to answer.

Unfortunately almost every question will trigger someone somewhere. People can’t just stop asking reasonable questions because of that.

CanIPleaseHaveOne · 18/11/2021 15:58

@Mouseonmychair

This is a standard form and a standard question. Seriously some people look for offence in everything. Just fill out the question as it states from the 3 answers. I don't know anyone who would be unable to answer.
Stunning.

"How to read without understanding a thing" must be a badge that people wear with pride nowadays.

Original poster
aweegc · 18/11/2021 15:55

My "highly personal views".

Im guessing you've never lived outside The West. Or maybe off the Internet? Because the majority of the country think that sex is a fact and if we put that in the world, the people who think that gender stereotypes of internal feelings cancel biological sex are such a tiny minority, they're statistically insignificant.

But you've made me think. Maybe I'm being transphobic. I mean I assumed the people who raped me were men, what with their penises, and bigger and stronger bodies. But perhaps I was wrong? I mean maybe I should be more sensitive because perhaps they could have felt like they were gender neutral, female, two-spirit or something else that day? Your thinking (and others on this thread) actually implies this. It's the natural continuation of the argument that identity trumps sex. But no matter what any of them would tick on a form, their male biology is what they used to injure my body. Their gender identity that day had zero impact on that.

OP posts:
purpleboy · 18/11/2021 15:37

[quote SaltyPepper]@merrymouse

I’m aware of it. You’ve just gone so far into the bubble with like minded people you have no idea how most people perceive you or this argument between feminists and trans ideology.[/quote]
I think the fact you have come and inserted yourself onto a thread by a distressed poster looking for support following years of abuse, and callously told her to get over it (not exact wording) is actually fucking disgusting.
Your talking a whole load of shite that makes zero sense, you don't know what your talking about, your incredibly rude, and come across like a petulant child.
So rather than derailing this thread any longer, why don't you start your own thread to chastise women and leave the op alone to find support and help from people who care enough to help her.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 18/11/2021 15:36

I am sure you are right.

It would be refreshing if, instead if berating women for having an opinion, such posters could just say "Well, you focus on sex, I focus on gender. They are discrete entities and we seem to value them differently"

If that ever happened we could all go home!

merrymouse · 18/11/2021 15:33

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Ha! That told you merry you naughty, nasty woman you! Grin
Sadly I think we are never going to find out what ‘gender neutral’ means in the context of sex.

☹️Halloween Grin

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 18/11/2021 15:25

Ha! That told you merry you naughty, nasty woman you! Grin

SaltyPepper · 18/11/2021 15:22

@merrymouse

I’m aware of it. You’ve just gone so far into the bubble with like minded people you have no idea how most people perceive you or this argument between feminists and trans ideology.

merrymouse · 18/11/2021 15:15

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Maybe you would find this thread helpful saltypepper. You give the impression that you have stumbled across this subject and don't know much about it.

merrymouse · 18/11/2021 15:12

[quote SaltyPepper]@merrymouse

Again sex being a “protected characteristic” is meaningless in terms of her reaction to this form and really doesn’t mean a whole lot anyway.[/quote]
You seem confused. I haven't mentioned protected characteristics.

SaltyPepper · 18/11/2021 15:08

@merrymouse

Again sex being a “protected characteristic” is meaningless in terms of her reaction to this form and really doesn’t mean a whole lot anyway.

CiaoForDiNiaoSaur · 18/11/2021 15:05

@Sunnysideup999

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself. This is all helpful to explore with your therapist. That is why the question is there . It’s not about how you answer it - it’s about what it brings up for you . Which is clearly a lot. Feel the anger and work out where it should be directed. I don’t think you are angry with your therapist - but it might feel like that.
Bollocks. I mean, sure, if OP is in therapy because of gender issues then it would be a useful discursive discussion point. But OP is in therapy for sex based trauma.

I've also got a history of sexual abuse. That abuse happened because I am female. A woman. Biologically. What I 'identify' as has nothing to do with that and therefore my therapist has no need to know which 'gender', if any, I identify as. Unless I choose to share that information.

merrymouse · 18/11/2021 14:52

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself.

No it isn't because it doesn't recognise that it is possible to feel dysphoric or be gender non conforming and also accept the reality of your sex.

merrymouse · 18/11/2021 14:45

[quote SaltyPepper]@merrymouse

Oh gee from Miriam Webster itself. Like I said highly subject to bias. If you really believe most people use the word gender that way you are deluded.[/quote]
Merriam Webster, and also the Oxford English Dictionary.

The word 'gender' has been used 'that way' in literature and speech for a very long time. Some people also use the word 'gender' to refer to sex, but in this instance, it's clear that they are referring to gender because they offer a 'gender neutral' option.

Maybe you would find a dictionary helpful?

PaleGreenGhost · 18/11/2021 14:39

Sex is a protected characteristic BTW SaltyPepper. Gender reassignment is a separate protected characteristic. This question gathers accurate data on neither.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 18/11/2021 14:36

@SaltyPepper

If you are expecting your therapist and some random form to share your highly personal views on sex/gender and all that jazz you will probably be disappointed more often than not. The question is can you get therapy from someone who doesn’t share your exact feminist politics? Because it’s obvious that this has upset you greatly and probably should be worked through.
Good point. If I were the OP I would find a new therapist. I could not trust someone who buys into this ideology as I think it shows a lack of critical thinking.
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 18/11/2021 14:35

@Sunnysideup999

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself. This is all helpful to explore with your therapist. That is why the question is there . It’s not about how you answer it - it’s about what it brings up for you . Which is clearly a lot. Feel the anger and work out where it should be directed. I don’t think you are angry with your therapist - but it might feel like that.
Why are you assuming that your gender has anything to do with how you identify yourself? What it brings up fir many people is a sense of anger that women are being oppressed, intimidated and harmed. There is no answer which allows that response. I think the anger might well actually be at the therapist who, if they thought this was an appropriate question, are very much part of the problem.
PaleGreenGhost · 18/11/2021 14:35

@Sunnysideup999

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself. This is all helpful to explore with your therapist. That is why the question is there . It’s not about how you answer it - it’s about what it brings up for you . Which is clearly a lot. Feel the anger and work out where it should be directed. I don’t think you are angry with your therapist - but it might feel like that.
Not convinced by that. The therapist or organisation will have a contract with the client re confidentiality and re data. They will explain precisely when confidential information must be shared (eg in the event of danger) and precisely what data is gathered how it is stored and why.

Is this form only going to be viewed by the therapist or is the data going to be used at any other point or input by any other staff? Feelings about one's gender ID, lack of gender ID or about gender, the method by which women are oppressed, strike me as confidential information that should not be shared beyond the therapist without explicit consent. Data on sex is needed by the organisation in order to plan services and monitor equality.

SaltyPepper · 18/11/2021 14:34

If you are expecting your therapist and some random form to share your highly personal views on sex/gender and all that jazz you will probably be disappointed more often than not. The question is can you get therapy from someone who doesn’t share your exact feminist politics? Because it’s obvious that this has upset you greatly and probably should be worked through.

SaltyPepper · 18/11/2021 14:31

@merrymouse

It means someone who doesn’t think they are either gender specifically/feels unsure or doesn’t want to say. I’m not writing the forms - I’m telling you your theoretical feminist interpretation of all this is just that and not how most people think of it. It is what it is. I don’t give a shit if gender neutral is on the forms but obviously some people did and now they can tick that. Who cares.

SaltyPepper · 18/11/2021 14:29

@merrymouse

Oh gee from Miriam Webster itself. Like I said highly subject to bias. If you really believe most people use the word gender that way you are deluded.

merrymouse · 18/11/2021 14:21

And you still haven't explained what 'gender neutral' means if gender only refers to sex.

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