Therapist asking if I'm a man, woman or gender neutral.

Brava!

If anybody can untangle my thoughts here I'd be most grateful.

Your thoughts aren’t tangled, aweegc. You are heroically sane. I was going to say It’s the world that’s gone mad. But it isn’t the world, just (unfortunately) those who shout loudly enough to scare the authorities into obeying them.

Well done for persevering with the therapist and opening her eyes. I hope you can also break out of the gaslighting relationship and find the happiness you deserve.

That's brilliant. I'm so glad you were able to talk to her about this and that she got it!

A good news story

Thanks for the update OP, I wanted to say, fully in the knowledge of how ridiculous it sounds, that you were very brave to raise the subject and respond in this way and how pleased I am that it didn't result in you needing to find another therapist.

(It shouldn't be brave to speak the very obvious truth, honesty is needed in therapy anyway, but this is one area where it takes extra guts and I think you should feel proud of yourself, especially so given the context of why you are there in the first place.)

Well done, you - what a fantastic update.

@SaltyPepper it astonishes me that you care so much about the inclusion of such a question but not the material pain of a rape survivor. So it’s be kind to everyone apart from women who have suffered sexual assault, the cognitive dissonance is astounding
Lol

[quote HoardingSamphireSaurus]@SaltyPepper given today's ruling by the IOC do you still think all of this is a joke?

There's a thread on it. Many mainstream media is now carrying the story. Don't take my word for it, go and read how it will now be possible for men to compete in wens sport without having to do anything to ameliorate their natural physical advantages.

Think that through... not just about medals, funding etc, consider contact sports.

Still laughing?[/quote]
There is no point to @Hoarding - Salty does not care. Salty is probably delighted with that ruling - show us who is boss and all that.

Save your energy and your mood!

@SaltyPepper given today's ruling by the IOC do you still think all of this is a joke?

There's a thread on it. Many mainstream media is now carrying the story. Don't take my word for it, go and read how it will now be possible for men to compete in wens sport without having to do anything to ameliorate their natural physical advantages.

Think that through... not just about medals, funding etc, consider contact sports.

Still laughing?

[quote SaltyPepper]@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Sister you are in a bubble and you really have no idea how most people see the whole feminist vs trans “battle”. Which is basically as a big joke on both “sides”.[/quote]
So you think it is a joke that women are being raped by men placed in the women's estate?

And you don't think it worth closing your mouth and opening your mind and having a quick look beyond the end of your own nose?

That you don't recognise names used here indicates you have waded into something you know little about.

Again, take a step back. Do some research.

“like whoever the hell Butler is”

You really are out of your depth.

Whatever your views on gender ideology, telling a woman she should just get over her trauma because everyone thinks this stuff is a joke - I don't even know what to say about that, actually. I can't quite fathom how lacking in ordinary human care you'd have to be to do that.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

[quote SaltyPepper]@merrymouse

Whether you call gender a “performance” (like whoever the hell Butler is) or trying to conform and in essence give a performance for society (like feminists say) is pointless semantics. Both amount to the same basic idea of gender not being intrinsically tied to sex (in essence the same thing) - this isn’t a widely held idea, the majority of people see sex and gender as either the exact same thing (most people) or at the least as sex directly influencing gendered behaviour of all kinds.[/quote]
As has already been explained to you, it's not feminists who say gender is a 'performance', it's queer theorists like Judith Butler. Here's a recent interview with her where she explains what that means:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/sep/07/judith-butler-interview-gender

(If you read that and think you are no further forward due to the incomprehensible word salad - that is part of the problem.)

The feminist view is that 'gender' is imposed on us by society. That society expects us to be a certain way because of our sex. Feminists say that we don't have to conform to this. We're not saying that it's not tied to sex. Of course it is.

I agree that many people use the word 'gender' as a polite euphemism for 'sex', because the word 'sex' is also used as shorthand for 'sexual intercourse'. Queer theorists and transactivists are using this confusion of terms to persuade people that because the performative 'gender' that Butler talks about can be changed (by a man crossdressing, for example), that sex can also be changed. They also maintain that only performative gender matters and sex is irrelevant. This is why boys end up in the girls' changing rooms in schools.

I find it very telling that some posters think that a thread started by a woman traumatised by sexual violence is the ideal place to start telling us we’re all silly women , everyone thinks gender and sex are the same and that like no one cares about this stuff you bigots

I mean it’s a quite astonishing empathy fail

[quote SaltyPepper]@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Sister you are in a bubble and you really have no idea how most people see the whole feminist vs trans “battle”. Which is basically as a big joke on both “sides”.[/quote]
A joke?

You think it's a 'joke' that women are being raped in prisons and refuges?

You think it's a 'joke' that women are being fired or forced out of their jobs?

You think it's a 'joke' that children are being put on a path to sterility when they are barely teenagers?

You have a very sick sense of humour.

Any one who thinks defending the right to even define ourselves as a sex class , amd to retain our sex based rights is a home should perhaps hand over their bank accounts , quit their jobs , remove their name from the tenancy agreement agreement quit school/college/University. Because of feminism is a joke they presumably don't want the benefits it has gained them?

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Sister you are in a bubble and you really have no idea how most people see the whole feminist vs trans “battle”. Which is basically as a big joke on both “sides”.

I guess if the therapist can see that the form is problematic, there would be a chance that the form could be useful. Personally if the therapist had nothing to do with creating it and could see that it was supporting an ideology which is problematic for many women, perhaps especially those who have been abused, I might consider continuing to see them. Otherwise. The therapist also needs to stand up for her clients by standing up to whoever designed the atrocity of a form. What is clear is that the OPs reaction to this form is proportionate and reasonable.

@merrymouse

Whether you call gender a “performance” (like whoever the hell Butler is) or trying to conform and in essence give a performance for society (like feminists say) is pointless semantics. Both amount to the same basic idea of gender not being intrinsically tied to sex (in essence the same thing) - this isn’t a widely held idea, the majority of people see sex and gender as either the exact same thing (most people) or at the least as sex directly influencing gendered behaviour of all kinds.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Whatever my own thoughts my original advice to ignore the form wasn’t given out of defending either trans or feminist theory, but simply because the form likely wasn’t personally overseen by the therapist and for OP to stop seeing him or her (or they) because of form they likely had nothing to do with would be a massive overreaction.
It’s very likely a standard form.

The form is asking a question which only makes sense if you hold the minority view that sex is unchanging

Apologies, this should read 'only makes sense if you hold the minority view that sex can change'

Yes, they are minority beliefs. The belief in sex being unchanging is the majority - however the feminist belief that gender is seperate from sex and is a “performance” is a very minority view.

The form is asking a question which only makes sense if you hold the minority view that sex is unchanging. Most people view gender and sex as the same thing, so most people think gender and sex cannot change. Why do you think the OP feels any differently?

Obviously you are mistaken that once you explain your point of view to people they are troubled. If this were so more people would be as upset as you are and yet they’re not. Perhaps they’re humouring you because your so obviously deeply obsessed with this.

You are making a big wadge of assumptions here. I don't explain my pov, I explain the facts. Many people think a transwoman is a biological woman who thinks they're a man. Many people don't think biological men will compete in women's sports or that a biological man would be eligible for a rape crisis job advertised for a woman or that a lesbian woman could be called a transphobe for not wanting to have sex with a biological man. None of that is a pov. They're not humouring me but your comment here is irrelevant as we could equally say that your peers are humouring you when they agree that this sort of thing is no big deal.

What exactly do you think I’m in the minority on? I’m not the trans activist you seem to see everywhere.

You have no idea what I see everywhere. Stop being so patronising.

What is your point about men and women’s clothes? We still have men’s and women’s clothes. Of course trans people shouldn’t allow themselves to be triggered by that. What on earth is your point?

My point is that you were suggesting that because the OP is in what you think is a minority, rather than changing the form, the OP should accept that this is her issue and try and change herself. But by that logic, people who are trans, and clearly in the minority should change themselves rather than expecting the world to change around them. You introduced the concept of 'standard' as regards the form as some sort of indicator that it was 'just normal' and therefore anyone who objected to it should sort themselves out. But by that logic, we should do away with all trans rights and just tell/ offer support to trans people so that they can stop objecting to things that are standard.

What exactly do you think I’m in the minority on?

Believing that neutral means change. I think you are in a minority of one there.

Beyond that you have failed to explain any of your views, so I couldn’t say.